Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
But ignoring other methods, the primary reason it's not mentioned for AR specifically, is because going that deep into Thieving that early in a playthrough is suboptimal to your other choices and GP isn't what keeps people from progressing. There are better picks over deep thieving that can both progress you and provide GP more consistently.
At least for bank slots itself I do have enough now to buffer for a bit.
1/ Not as good outside AR mode
I said this above, but yes, the income potential is much lower without the thieving ancient relics. Area drops are at a rate of 0.6% instead of 2.1%, so about 25% as much income, at best. However, even in those modes, it is still an extra source of income on top of everything else. It's not Jester's Hat or something else entirely, it's in addition to. Jester's Hat is usually replacing either the Golbin Mask for +20 Stealth or the Chapeau Noir for +10% doubling. So for thieving the princess, for instance, is the extra stealth or doubling chance more valuable than the millions of extra GP/hr from the Jester's Hat? I'd be curious about a side by side comparison, but I don't have the bandwidth to actually do the comparison myself right now.
2/ Going deep into thieving in AR mode is non-optimal
Progression for non-combat skills in AR mode is semi-random, so players have to make due with the level ups provided instead of following a deterministic route. Early thieving is very good as a source of food and miscellaneous other materials (wood, ore, bars, arrows, seeds, etc) and thieving is a better level up choice than like half of the other non combat skills. Also, as the player gets closer to Impending Darkness, more and more skills will be reaching their soft cap of 99 anyway, so players having the potential to level up thieving to 99 is basically inevitable.
3/ GP doesn't keep people from progressing
Technically correct, but GP is still valuable. If you want to level up township you need GP (it costs like 1 billion for everything up to level 99). Plus you could spend hundreds of millions on equipment sets and skill upgrades which are not strictly necessary (I think only equipment swapping and auto-eat and required to get through the game). However most likely that GP is going to more bank space. You can have a lean inventory similar to hardcore mode, but this requires throwing away a lot of stuff and micro-managing your inventory a lot more. I know I'm not the only person who likes to hoard things and the peace of mind of always having more bank space available.
4/ Other picks provide GP more consistently
I'm unsure what you mean by this. Thieving is pretty valuable early on, because it can be a good way to get food. It's also a good source of money even early on, because the marauder has a lot of valuable items and only needs 1 level up to reach. It's even easier and safer than other modes if you get relic 4 or 5 at level 20. What would be a better income potential than thieving at low levels? Normally fishing is very good, but fishing is locked out by default in AR mode.
Or if you mean other picks provide more GP, then I don't know what that would be. The only thing close to this on the wiki's money making guide page is the 'Thieving with Leprechaun + Monkey Synergy' which says it maxes at 44 million/hour. I got to 40-44 million/hr using the jester's hap, and that was in no way optimized. However, if you look at the wiki page, they only achieve that number by thieving the Knight (which requires more skill cap level ups than the jester), including bonuses from other skills (so need levels in Astrology, Summoning, Agility, and Cartography) and by using items from Throne of the Herald (Grappling Hook). Also as far as I'm aware, it doesn't factor in the cost of the tablets that it uses, and those tablets are even harder to get/more expensive in AR mode without item preservation and doubling.
I understand that this application is more niche, being most useful in Ancient Mode mode pre-Impending Darkness, but under those circumstances it's SO much better at what it does than the alternative that I'm surprised no one else (that I've seen) has talked about or proposed this.
If you did want to maximize earnings for GP in Ancient Relic mode pre-ID, it would likely be using Jester's Hat + Monkey/Leprechaun synergy and thieving the King. Thieving relics allow for 100% success chance from King by level 99 in AR mode that isn't possible in base game alone (even with Jester's Hat equipped and giving a penalty), average value of drops from the King are better than the Knight, and Jester's Hat makes huge amounts of extra money by itself. Again I don't really have the bandwidth to provide a fully optimized version of this right now, but I'm not aware of anything pre Throne that would out-earn this.
2,3) Yes early Thieving is good for food. The point is that by the time you have picks to spare on Thieving "closer to Impending Darkness", GP isn't what is holding you back and you have the majority of your purchases out of the way. If instead you choose to focus Thieving over other optimal picks you are actively delaying your own progress for GP which is moot by then. Past your 40, maybe 55 pick on Thieving there is no good reason to choose it TWICE over other picks. You say you want it for bank space but that isn't typically the concern of someone that late in the game, as passive income from Township is enough to cover your bank purchases.
4) Early value of Thieving isn't the point. You're conflating Early Thieving being valuable to mean that all of Thieving is valuable in AR. You even say Thieving at low levels. What? Jester is level 79, that's hardly low level. Your example was 3-4 Million before Jester to 14-15 Million on Jester. The guide you reference next lists Fisherman at 13.45 Million per hour and that's 2 Thieving picks less than doing Jester.
If you can wear the Thieving Cape(level 99), then you can Thieve the Knight. All of those skills you mentioned are better picks to take over deep thieving so you should already have them, especially as all of them are necessary to make Combat, the main focus of AR, easier. Also I don't see what it matters if they use Grappling Hook as you already pointed out that Thieving Relic 4 gives you +150 Stealth while Grappling Hook is only 50.
So 44 Million per hour, BEFORE Thieving relics that boost GP.
It's weird how you can remember it's Ancient Relics mode(no item doubling and preservation) but forget it Ancient Relics mode at the same time.
Summoning Relics:
-25% Summoning Interval
+15 base primary resource(tablets)
+30% Cost Reduction for Summoning, excluding Shards
Go talk to the people on Discord and ask questions. Those are the ones who come up with the guides and run thousands of simulations. Those are the ones who come up with the Thieving spreadsheet. If it really is a superior method then go convince them so a proper guide can be wrote up.
Also, I've spent some time looking into the wiki calculation values for income for thieving. They provide the saves used, but the save files are hacked to be very specifically those stats and nothing else. It's...kind of odd. Because the Knight calculation at 44 Mil/hr is actually underselling its earning potential by existing in a state that I don't think any actual player would achieve. It includes the thieving skillcape for getting level 99, but doesn't include any of the mastery checkpoint bonuses. I guess it's possible that someone could level up a skill to max level, but keep spending all the mastery pool XP and not even hit 10% checkpoint, but it seems a little awkward to me.
However, this has allowed me to confirm that the Jester's Hat is in fact underrated. It's not even listed as a potential upgrade on the page, however, if you take the 44 Mil GP/hr knight build and get all of the mastery pool checkpoints (+130 stealth, +100% GP, -0.2 interval), earnings go from 44 to 50 Mil/hr. Then, if you replace the Golbin Mask with the Jester's Hat, you'll still be at 100% success rate because the +130 from the mastery checkpoints more than offsets the -95 from switching the Jester's Hat. And as for the earnings, you lose about 250,000 from raw GP from the Golbin Mask, and gain about 2.2 Million GP from the Jester's Hat. And this is on standard mode, where the rate is still limited to 0.6%, and with the knight where the area isn't the best for maximizing the Jester's Hat. So, at least for that setup, the current guide is leaving money on the table by not using the Jester's Hat.
To be fair to the wiki though, Jester's Hat is a more complex upgrade than any other, which are all just straight improvements. Jester's Hat sometimes out-earns the mask, but it's dependent on specific game state. However it's not necessary to be in Ancient Relic mode for it sometimes be the correct in slot item for maximizing earnings.
In Ancient Relics mode, before Throne of the Herald, here is the ultimate GP earner.
Target: King
Thieving 99, target mastery 99, 95% checkpoint active
All Ancient Relics for Thieving
King's Crown (passive), Jester's Hat, Jeweled Necklace, Fine Coinpurse, Sneak-Ers,
Gloves of Silence, Aorphaet's Ring, Thieving Skillcape, Lesser Thieving Relics
Monkey/Leprechaun Tablets
Gentle Hands IV
Bandit Hideout
Cargo Net/Coal Stones/Rooftop Run/Pillar of Generosity
Snek/Mister Fuzzbutt
Ko (maxed with Astrology Relic 6)
With this, should have
983 Stealth (100% success)
1.25 second Interval
617% GP increase
Earnings Breakdown from my calculations:
Raw GP - 13.4 Mil/hr
Jester's Hat - 50.6 Mil/hr
Monkey/Leprechaun Synergy - 81.9 Mil/hr
Unique NPC items - 18K/hr
Rare Drops - 103K/hr
Total - 146.1 Million GP/hr
Only base game/AoD increase I didn't include was for mastering cartography, but theoretical upside is even higher. And this is only base game/AoD, which you need for Ancient Relics mode anyway, but without including anything from Throne.
I didn't say that, good try though. Please don't twist my words as I went out of my way to use the numbers and examples you provided.
From Township itself as well as the tons of money you make off of Slayer, the top money maker on that list. AR allows you to get even more money and kill stuff even quicker. It's also synergistic with progressing your combat. So you don't need to use skill picks that only get you more GP income with no added utility. Township you can sell the items from the Trader plus the passive.
That's the problem. You can calculate all you want but when they ran sims, Jester's Hat fell behind and that was only with the Golbin Mask. If you then take into account King's Crown it falls behind harder. Then there are all of the extra GP gains that AR gives such as Thieving Relic, double Astrology, etc. THAT is why no one talks about Jester's Hat as a reliable money maker, because it's inconsistent, which you admit yourself.
You are absolutely correct when you say that endgame King is best to thief from. The issue is that the only buff Jester's Hat gets that Golbin Mask doesn't, is the increased Area Unique Drop rate. So for AR you have to convince people the .5% increased drop chance outperforms straight GP bonuses.
So for AR mode:
1) You have to get all the thieving Relics for Jester's to even be viable.
2) You have to invest 2 more skill picks into thieving while getting almost 0 utility/progression return just to get the item.
3) Jester's Hat has to consistently outperform GP gain helms and at a large enough margin.
Those 3 reasons should answer your original question as to why no one talks about Jester's Hat.
That's literally not what the Jester's Hat does. It gives flat GP based on the item's value. That GP is in addition to any other sources of GP, so the Jester's Hat is an extra source of GP on top of all other forms of GP.
The golbin mask added GP/hr is:
20 * GP multiplier / Interval * 3600
The Jester's Hat added GP/hr is:
(Sum of all area item's value) * 1.75 * GP multiplier / (1/area drop rate) / interval * 3600
Kings Crown adds a 40%, but it can't be calculated in isolation because GP multipliers are combined additively. So a 50% GP increase with 100% other bonuses increases from 100% to 150%, for a (2.5/2) = 1.25, or a 25% total increase. But a 50% increase with 400% other bonuses increases from 400% to 450%, for a (5.5/5) = 1.1, or 10% total increase. The takeaway is the bonus become less effective the more other bonuses you already have to increase GP, and with available GP bonuses the Kings Crown could be adding as little as 5-8% extra GP on top of what is already being earned. Also the Kings Crown can be equipped in the passive slot.
For a comparison for golbin mask to Jester's Hat, you can literally set the two equations above equal to one another to determine when one is better than the other. So the Jester's Hat is better when:
20 / (effective interval with Golbin Mask) < (Sum area items) * 1.75 / (1/area drop rate) / (effective interval with Jester's Hat)
And if stealth is high enough that both are going to be at 100% success, it can be simplified to:
20 < (Sum area items) * 1.75 / (1/area drop rate)
This is why I said it depends on game state. So if you're stealing from the golbin chief or the lumberjack, the mask will always be better. If you're stealing from the man/woman in low town, the mask will be better unless you have the 95% checkpoint, then the hat is better. If you're stealing from the fort or the royal castle, the hat will always be better unless stealth isn't high enough to hit 100% in both cases, in which case you need to calculate the better item based on the first equations and varying success chances based on stealth and perception values.
I have run this in engine, in my own Ancient Relics run. That's where all my anecdotal values from my original post come from. I also ran the test file knight example and the cyclops example from the wiki to prove that even in standard mode, the jester's hat does outperform the golbin mask in engine when it's supposed to. However most things are determined through calculations because there's a strong correlation between calculations and engine output, and simulating every possible scenario in engine is a huge waste of time. I could not find a calculator that accounts for the earnings from Jester's Hat, or a post that tries to account for its potential. It's not that people ran sims with the Hat and it performed bad, it's that they read the item description and didn't bother trying.
At this point, I don't care if you or anyone else believes this, despite the fact that it is very easy to take a sufficiently progressed file or even the available test files from the wiki and see for yourself that this is true. I made this post to try and bring more attention to an undervalued item because I was shocked at how much extra money I started making when I tried it out for the sake of curiosity. When I went to look around, there's very few posts about this item and nothing on the wiki about it besides its own item page. I've made my case and presented the math and the data. You can do whatever you'd like with this information, and anyone can play the game however they choose.
...
I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not now.
Thieving Master Relic: