Melvor Idle

Melvor Idle

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Jester's Hat is a great GP making item for Ancient Relics mode
So I think the Jester's Hat is very underrated for money making potential, particularly in Ancient Relics mode. I did a quick search and haven't found anyone else really talking about this or recommending it, so I'll go into how this item works, and how it may be the best way to make GP in Ancient Relics mode until late TotH content.


What is Jester's Hat
The hat is an item that is a unique drop from thieving the court jester. Wearing it gives -75 Stealth, and yes, it's a penalty that lowers the player's stealth value while thieving. This (rightfully) turns a lot of people away by making the item more of a liability than an asset, because you'd either want to use the golbin mask (+20 stealth) or the Chapeau Noir (+10% doubling in thieving). However, the Jester's Hat also says 'When you pickpocket a unique item gain flat GP equal to 0.5-3x its value'.

What's not immediately obvious is that the extra GP gained from the Jester's Hat ability is multiplied by the same increases to GP gained from thieving. So if you have the 50% mastery checkpoint (+100% GP gained from thieving) and are wearing the thieving skillcape (+100% GP gained from thieving), you get +200%, or 3x GP, so now the Jester's Hat gives flat GP equal to 1.5-9x an item's base value.


Best Areas to Maximize Value from Jester's Hat
Another thing to note is that, as far as I can tell from testing, the extra GP from the hat only multiples the value by 1 item in a stack instead of the value of a stack. So, for instance, stealing from Bob the Farmer and getting 10x Basic Bags, the extra GP would be a multiple of the value of 1 Basic Bag (4,000 GP) and not the stack of bags (40,000 GP).

So the area with the most value unique area items is the Royal Castle (conveniently, the area the court jester is located), and this includes the Throne of Herald areas. The Antique Vase is 30,000 GP, the Chest of Gems is 19,200 GP, and the Ring of Wealth is 11,200 GP. The only other items in any area that are close are the Knight's Cape (9,950 GP), the Shipwheel (10,000 GP), and the Giant's Club (15,000 GP).


Increasing Area Unique Item Chance
The base chance to receive an area unique item is 1/500, or 0.2%. The Hunter's Journal from Throne of the Herald increases this by 0.01%, or about a 5% increase. The better way is the 95% mastery checkpoint, which increases Area Unique drops by 200%, or 3x, to a drop chance of 0.6%.

However, in Ancient Relics mode, Relic 6 for Thieving, the one you get by finding all other relics, increases the Area Unique Item chance by 0.5%. Depending on the order of how this is added with the multiplier from the 95% checkpoint, this translates to a 1.1% or a 2.1% chance of a unique area item. Based on my testing, it seems like not only is the chance a 2.1% drop, but this is applied independently to EACH area item, meaning that for every 100 successful thieving attempts the player will get 2.1 of each area unique item, on average.


Putting It All Together
So assuming you have the followings:
- Ancient Relic mode
- 95% mastery checkpoint for thieving
- Enough skill level ups in thieving to reach the court jester (accessible at thieving level 79)
- Located all thieving ancient relics

With the above, you can really start to benefit from using the Jester's Hat. Here is an example of potential earnings, and understand that there's even more potential bonuses not included:
+50% - Court Jester (or Royal Court target) mastery level 50
+50% - Pet Snek
+50% - Thieving Relic 3
+100% - 50% thieving mastery checkpoint
+100% - Aorpheat's Ring
+10% - Thiever's Cape
+10% - Fine Coinpurse
+5% - Jeweled Necklace

+375% - TOTAL (or a 4.75x multiplier)

This means that the 0.5x-3x range for each area item found is further multiplied by 4.75. So here's the new range when finding an area item:
Antique Vase - 71,250 - 427,500 GP (249,375 GP on average)
Chest of Gems - 45,600 - 273,600 GP (159,600 GP on average)
Ring of Wealth - 26,600 - 159,600 GP (93,100 GP on average)

Total average earnings per set of 3 = 502,075 GP

On average the player will find one of each of these items about every 50 actions (2%). The starting interval is 3 seconds for thieving, here are some basic interval reductions:
- Court Jester (or Royal Court target) mastery level 50 (-0.2 seconds)
- Gloves of Silence (-0.1 seconds)
- 25% thieving mastery checkpoint (-0.2 seconds)

Like above, there are many other interval reductions to be found. But just these 3 bring the interval down to 2.5 seconds. This means that, on average, the player will receive 1 of each area item every 50 intervals, or every 125 seconds. So that is 502,075 GP/125 seconds, or 14.46 million GP/hour, just from the Jester's Hat alone. This value would then be reduced by the success rate, assuming the rate is anything less than 100%.

And that brings us to the player's stealth and success rate. It's very likely that when the court jester is first unlocked, the player will not have enough sources of stealth to reach 100% success with the court jester. Another advantage of the Ancient Relic mode is Thieving Relic 5, which prevents all damage in thieving (and relic 4 which is +150 Stealth). This makes the court jester free to steal from without needing food, although it does lower the overall income by the success rate percentage. The calculation here is a bit complicated, because a failure in thieving causes a stun which increases the overall average interval time, so a 90% success rate would be less than 90% of the income calculation above. And then Thieving Relic 2 prevents the stun 30% of the time. For anyone interested, I believe this is the correct formula for an effective thieving interval per success:

Effective Interval = [Success Interval] + [Failure Interval] + [Stun Interval]
where:
Success Interval = Interval
Failure Interval = ( (1/success chance) - 1) * (Interval)
Stun Interval = ( (1/success chance) - 1) * (Stun Duration) * (Stun Interval Chance)
where:
Effective Interval => How long to get 1 successful attempt, on average
Interval => Listed interval for an action in thieving
Failure Interval => Adjustment for time spent on failed attempts
Success Chance => Likelihood of success, where 100% = 1 and 90% = 0.9, etc
Stun Interval => Adjustment for time spent stunned
Stun Duration => Length of stun, default is 3 seconds
Stun Interval Chance => Chance that a stun occurs, default is 1, this is reduced by Relic 2 to 0.7, but other items can also reduce this.


To try and summarize the above, higher success chances are better because it means less time spent on failed attempts and being stunned. An interval of 3 seconds with a 90% success rate has a new effective interval of 3.66 seconds, an interval of 2.5 seconds with an 80% success rate will have an effective interval of 3.875 seconds, and so on.

Anecdotally, I was using thieving in Ancient Relics to earn money, and had managed to find all the thieving relics long before reaching level 99 in thieving. I was stealing from the miner/squire to the tune of about 3-4 million/hour. This jumped to 15-18 million/hour thieving the court jester while wearing the jester's hat with basically no other changes (and about an 80% success rate on the court jester). This jumped up again once the court jester reached level 99 mastery, to about 22 million/hour, because the extra stealth pushed the success rate to like 95%. Then once I hit thieving level 99 and got the skillcape, earnings went to 40-45 million/hour. Considering this was without a number of potential increases like Ko constellation in Astrology, I think this is better GP/hr than any other base game GP making strategy I'm aware of.


Questions
Q/ Why do this?
If you're in Ancient Relic mode and looking for a good mid-game money making strategy, this is the best one. It has low requirements to access compared to many other money making strategies, only requiring 5 level-ups to thieving to reach the court jester, and no other skill level requirements. However, it does also require finding all of the ancient relics for thieving.

Q/ Doesn't X/Y/Z earn more GP?
Yes, eventually this will be outpaced by other money making options, but those tend to be later in Throne of the Herald content and require high levels in many different skills. This is not a guide for how to maximize earnings, and is instead pointing out that I think the Jester's Hat item synergizes uniquely well with Ancient Relics mode, and that no other GP making methods I am aware of generates anywhere near this amount of GP for this point in the game.

Q/ Can I do this in Standard/Hardcore/Adventure Mode?
Yes, but the income potential is much lower (~25% what you get in Ancient Relics mode, at best).

Q/ What if I don't have all the thieving relics?
As above, income potential is much lower. This really depends on both the 95% mastery checkpoint AND thieving relic 6 to boost unique area item chance as high as possible.



Conclusions
If you're playing Ancient Relic mode and looking for a way to make GP, try out the Jester's Hat. All you need is enough level ups in thieving to reach court jester, and to find all the thieving ancient relics. Once you do, equip the Jester's Hat, go back to steal from the court jester, and watch the money pour in.
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Showing 1-8 of 8 comments
Pandorian 24 Jan @ 11:25pm 
It's not mentioned because base game, that is without all the AR bonuses, there already exists a method for thieving that you can do sooner than jester and provides more GP than what you mentioned. Then there are better methods the deeper into thieving you get.

But ignoring other methods, the primary reason it's not mentioned for AR specifically, is because going that deep into Thieving that early in a playthrough is suboptimal to your other choices and GP isn't what keeps people from progressing. There are better picks over deep thieving that can both progress you and provide GP more consistently.
15 million per hour does sound good. I do want to buy more of the bank tabs to help organize things more because I have too much stuck on one tab.
At least for bank slots itself I do have enough now to buffer for a bit.
sonen4 25 Jan @ 3:15pm 
Pandorian, to respond to your points

1/ Not as good outside AR mode
I said this above, but yes, the income potential is much lower without the thieving ancient relics. Area drops are at a rate of 0.6% instead of 2.1%, so about 25% as much income, at best. However, even in those modes, it is still an extra source of income on top of everything else. It's not Jester's Hat or something else entirely, it's in addition to. Jester's Hat is usually replacing either the Golbin Mask for +20 Stealth or the Chapeau Noir for +10% doubling. So for thieving the princess, for instance, is the extra stealth or doubling chance more valuable than the millions of extra GP/hr from the Jester's Hat? I'd be curious about a side by side comparison, but I don't have the bandwidth to actually do the comparison myself right now.

2/ Going deep into thieving in AR mode is non-optimal
Progression for non-combat skills in AR mode is semi-random, so players have to make due with the level ups provided instead of following a deterministic route. Early thieving is very good as a source of food and miscellaneous other materials (wood, ore, bars, arrows, seeds, etc) and thieving is a better level up choice than like half of the other non combat skills. Also, as the player gets closer to Impending Darkness, more and more skills will be reaching their soft cap of 99 anyway, so players having the potential to level up thieving to 99 is basically inevitable.

3/ GP doesn't keep people from progressing
Technically correct, but GP is still valuable. If you want to level up township you need GP (it costs like 1 billion for everything up to level 99). Plus you could spend hundreds of millions on equipment sets and skill upgrades which are not strictly necessary (I think only equipment swapping and auto-eat and required to get through the game). However most likely that GP is going to more bank space. You can have a lean inventory similar to hardcore mode, but this requires throwing away a lot of stuff and micro-managing your inventory a lot more. I know I'm not the only person who likes to hoard things and the peace of mind of always having more bank space available.

4/ Other picks provide GP more consistently
I'm unsure what you mean by this. Thieving is pretty valuable early on, because it can be a good way to get food. It's also a good source of money even early on, because the marauder has a lot of valuable items and only needs 1 level up to reach. It's even easier and safer than other modes if you get relic 4 or 5 at level 20. What would be a better income potential than thieving at low levels? Normally fishing is very good, but fishing is locked out by default in AR mode.

Or if you mean other picks provide more GP, then I don't know what that would be. The only thing close to this on the wiki's money making guide page is the 'Thieving with Leprechaun + Monkey Synergy' which says it maxes at 44 million/hour. I got to 40-44 million/hr using the jester's hap, and that was in no way optimized. However, if you look at the wiki page, they only achieve that number by thieving the Knight (which requires more skill cap level ups than the jester), including bonuses from other skills (so need levels in Astrology, Summoning, Agility, and Cartography) and by using items from Throne of the Herald (Grappling Hook). Also as far as I'm aware, it doesn't factor in the cost of the tablets that it uses, and those tablets are even harder to get/more expensive in AR mode without item preservation and doubling.



I understand that this application is more niche, being most useful in Ancient Mode mode pre-Impending Darkness, but under those circumstances it's SO much better at what it does than the alternative that I'm surprised no one else (that I've seen) has talked about or proposed this.

If you did want to maximize earnings for GP in Ancient Relic mode pre-ID, it would likely be using Jester's Hat + Monkey/Leprechaun synergy and thieving the King. Thieving relics allow for 100% success chance from King by level 99 in AR mode that isn't possible in base game alone (even with Jester's Hat equipped and giving a penalty), average value of drops from the King are better than the Knight, and Jester's Hat makes huge amounts of extra money by itself. Again I don't really have the bandwidth to provide a fully optimized version of this right now, but I'm not aware of anything pre Throne that would out-earn this.
Pandorian 25 Jan @ 7:35pm 
1) The primary money from Thieving the Princess isn't from actually Thieving but Fletching. Whether you get more money from doubling/Goblin or Jester is moot as that's not the point of Thieving the Princess. If we do take that example, Jester's Hat is detrimental as unique drop chance is a calculation of your Stealth vs their perception.

2,3) Yes early Thieving is good for food. The point is that by the time you have picks to spare on Thieving "closer to Impending Darkness", GP isn't what is holding you back and you have the majority of your purchases out of the way. If instead you choose to focus Thieving over other optimal picks you are actively delaying your own progress for GP which is moot by then. Past your 40, maybe 55 pick on Thieving there is no good reason to choose it TWICE over other picks. You say you want it for bank space but that isn't typically the concern of someone that late in the game, as passive income from Township is enough to cover your bank purchases.

4) Early value of Thieving isn't the point. You're conflating Early Thieving being valuable to mean that all of Thieving is valuable in AR. You even say Thieving at low levels. What? Jester is level 79, that's hardly low level. Your example was 3-4 Million before Jester to 14-15 Million on Jester. The guide you reference next lists Fisherman at 13.45 Million per hour and that's 2 Thieving picks less than doing Jester.

Then once I hit thieving level 99 and got the skillcape, earnings went to 40-45 million/hour.
...
Thieving with Leprechaun + Monkey Synergy' which says it maxes at 44 million/hour. I got to 40-44 million/hr using the jester's hap, and that was in no way optimized. However, if you look at the wiki page, they only achieve that number by thieving the Knight (which requires more skill cap level ups than the jester), including bonuses from other skills (so need levels in Astrology, Summoning, Agility, and Cartography) and by using items from Throne of the Herald (Grappling Hook).

If you can wear the Thieving Cape(level 99), then you can Thieve the Knight. All of those skills you mentioned are better picks to take over deep thieving so you should already have them, especially as all of them are necessary to make Combat, the main focus of AR, easier. Also I don't see what it matters if they use Grappling Hook as you already pointed out that Thieving Relic 4 gives you +150 Stealth while Grappling Hook is only 50.

So 44 Million per hour, BEFORE Thieving relics that boost GP.

Also as far as I'm aware, it doesn't factor in the cost of the tablets that it uses, and those tablets are even harder to get/more expensive in AR mode without item preservation and doubling.

It's weird how you can remember it's Ancient Relics mode(no item doubling and preservation) but forget it Ancient Relics mode at the same time.

Summoning Relics:
-25% Summoning Interval
+15 base primary resource(tablets)
+30% Cost Reduction for Summoning, excluding Shards

Again I don't really have the bandwidth to provide a fully optimized version of this right now, but I'm not aware of anything pre Throne that would out-earn this.

Go talk to the people on Discord and ask questions. Those are the ones who come up with the guides and run thousands of simulations. Those are the ones who come up with the Thieving spreadsheet. If it really is a superior method then go convince them so a proper guide can be wrote up.
Last edited by Pandorian; 25 Jan @ 7:37pm
sonen4 27 Jan @ 11:11am 
So using township passive income is better than thieving for money? Where are you getting 800 Million for the town halls? Also township earnings for level 99 are much slower than for 120. You can get 1-1.5 Million per hour, average across seasons, from 99 township, which takes 22-33 days of income for it to even pay for itself. If you let thieving at around 40 Mil/hr run overnight once, you make as much money as 2 weeks of passive income from township.

Also, I've spent some time looking into the wiki calculation values for income for thieving. They provide the saves used, but the save files are hacked to be very specifically those stats and nothing else. It's...kind of odd. Because the Knight calculation at 44 Mil/hr is actually underselling its earning potential by existing in a state that I don't think any actual player would achieve. It includes the thieving skillcape for getting level 99, but doesn't include any of the mastery checkpoint bonuses. I guess it's possible that someone could level up a skill to max level, but keep spending all the mastery pool XP and not even hit 10% checkpoint, but it seems a little awkward to me.

However, this has allowed me to confirm that the Jester's Hat is in fact underrated. It's not even listed as a potential upgrade on the page, however, if you take the 44 Mil GP/hr knight build and get all of the mastery pool checkpoints (+130 stealth, +100% GP, -0.2 interval), earnings go from 44 to 50 Mil/hr. Then, if you replace the Golbin Mask with the Jester's Hat, you'll still be at 100% success rate because the +130 from the mastery checkpoints more than offsets the -95 from switching the Jester's Hat. And as for the earnings, you lose about 250,000 from raw GP from the Golbin Mask, and gain about 2.2 Million GP from the Jester's Hat. And this is on standard mode, where the rate is still limited to 0.6%, and with the knight where the area isn't the best for maximizing the Jester's Hat. So, at least for that setup, the current guide is leaving money on the table by not using the Jester's Hat.

To be fair to the wiki though, Jester's Hat is a more complex upgrade than any other, which are all just straight improvements. Jester's Hat sometimes out-earns the mask, but it's dependent on specific game state. However it's not necessary to be in Ancient Relic mode for it sometimes be the correct in slot item for maximizing earnings.

In Ancient Relics mode, before Throne of the Herald, here is the ultimate GP earner.
Target: King
Thieving 99, target mastery 99, 95% checkpoint active
All Ancient Relics for Thieving
King's Crown (passive), Jester's Hat, Jeweled Necklace, Fine Coinpurse, Sneak-Ers,
Gloves of Silence, Aorphaet's Ring, Thieving Skillcape, Lesser Thieving Relics
Monkey/Leprechaun Tablets
Gentle Hands IV
Bandit Hideout
Cargo Net/Coal Stones/Rooftop Run/Pillar of Generosity
Snek/Mister Fuzzbutt
Ko (maxed with Astrology Relic 6)

With this, should have
983 Stealth (100% success)
1.25 second Interval
617% GP increase

Earnings Breakdown from my calculations:
Raw GP - 13.4 Mil/hr
Jester's Hat - 50.6 Mil/hr
Monkey/Leprechaun Synergy - 81.9 Mil/hr
Unique NPC items - 18K/hr
Rare Drops - 103K/hr
Total - 146.1 Million GP/hr

Only base game/AoD increase I didn't include was for mastering cartography, but theoretical upside is even higher. And this is only base game/AoD, which you need for Ancient Relics mode anyway, but without including anything from Throne.
Originally posted by sonen4:
So using township passive income is better than thieving for money?

I didn't say that, good try though. Please don't twist my words as I went out of my way to use the numbers and examples you provided.

Where are you getting 800 Million for the town halls?

From Township itself as well as the tons of money you make off of Slayer, the top money maker on that list. AR allows you to get even more money and kill stuff even quicker. It's also synergistic with progressing your combat. So you don't need to use skill picks that only get you more GP income with no added utility. Township you can sell the items from the Trader plus the passive.

Earnings Breakdown from my calculations:

That's the problem. You can calculate all you want but when they ran sims, Jester's Hat fell behind and that was only with the Golbin Mask. If you then take into account King's Crown it falls behind harder. Then there are all of the extra GP gains that AR gives such as Thieving Relic, double Astrology, etc. THAT is why no one talks about Jester's Hat as a reliable money maker, because it's inconsistent, which you admit yourself.

Jester's Hat sometimes out-earns the mask, but it's dependent on specific game state.

You are absolutely correct when you say that endgame King is best to thief from. The issue is that the only buff Jester's Hat gets that Golbin Mask doesn't, is the increased Area Unique Drop rate. So for AR you have to convince people the .5% increased drop chance outperforms straight GP bonuses.

So for AR mode:
1) You have to get all the thieving Relics for Jester's to even be viable.
2) You have to invest 2 more skill picks into thieving while getting almost 0 utility/progression return just to get the item.
3) Jester's Hat has to consistently outperform GP gain helms and at a large enough margin.

Those 3 reasons should answer your original question as to why no one talks about Jester's Hat.
Last edited by Pandorian; 27 Jan @ 2:52pm
sonen4 27 Jan @ 10:22pm 
Originally posted by Pandorian:
You are absolutely correct when you say that endgame King is best to thief from. The issue is that the only buff Jester's Hat gets that Golbin Mask doesn't, is the increased Area Unique Drop rate. So for AR you have to convince people the .5% increased drop chance outperforms straight GP bonuses.


That's literally not what the Jester's Hat does. It gives flat GP based on the item's value. That GP is in addition to any other sources of GP, so the Jester's Hat is an extra source of GP on top of all other forms of GP.
The golbin mask added GP/hr is:
20 * GP multiplier / Interval * 3600

The Jester's Hat added GP/hr is:
(Sum of all area item's value) * 1.75 * GP multiplier / (1/area drop rate) / interval * 3600

Kings Crown adds a 40%, but it can't be calculated in isolation because GP multipliers are combined additively. So a 50% GP increase with 100% other bonuses increases from 100% to 150%, for a (2.5/2) = 1.25, or a 25% total increase. But a 50% increase with 400% other bonuses increases from 400% to 450%, for a (5.5/5) = 1.1, or 10% total increase. The takeaway is the bonus become less effective the more other bonuses you already have to increase GP, and with available GP bonuses the Kings Crown could be adding as little as 5-8% extra GP on top of what is already being earned. Also the Kings Crown can be equipped in the passive slot.

For a comparison for golbin mask to Jester's Hat, you can literally set the two equations above equal to one another to determine when one is better than the other. So the Jester's Hat is better when:
20 / (effective interval with Golbin Mask) < (Sum area items) * 1.75 / (1/area drop rate) / (effective interval with Jester's Hat)

And if stealth is high enough that both are going to be at 100% success, it can be simplified to:
20 < (Sum area items) * 1.75 / (1/area drop rate)

This is why I said it depends on game state. So if you're stealing from the golbin chief or the lumberjack, the mask will always be better. If you're stealing from the man/woman in low town, the mask will be better unless you have the 95% checkpoint, then the hat is better. If you're stealing from the fort or the royal castle, the hat will always be better unless stealth isn't high enough to hit 100% in both cases, in which case you need to calculate the better item based on the first equations and varying success chances based on stealth and perception values.

I have run this in engine, in my own Ancient Relics run. That's where all my anecdotal values from my original post come from. I also ran the test file knight example and the cyclops example from the wiki to prove that even in standard mode, the jester's hat does outperform the golbin mask in engine when it's supposed to. However most things are determined through calculations because there's a strong correlation between calculations and engine output, and simulating every possible scenario in engine is a huge waste of time. I could not find a calculator that accounts for the earnings from Jester's Hat, or a post that tries to account for its potential. It's not that people ran sims with the Hat and it performed bad, it's that they read the item description and didn't bother trying.

At this point, I don't care if you or anyone else believes this, despite the fact that it is very easy to take a sufficiently progressed file or even the available test files from the wiki and see for yourself that this is true. I made this post to try and bring more attention to an undervalued item because I was shocked at how much extra money I started making when I tried it out for the sake of curiosity. When I went to look around, there's very few posts about this item and nothing on the wiki about it besides its own item page. I've made my case and presented the math and the data. You can do whatever you'd like with this information, and anyone can play the game however they choose.
Pandorian 27 Jan @ 10:28pm 
Originally posted by sonen4:
Originally posted by Pandorian:
You are absolutely correct when you say that endgame King is best to thief from. The issue is that the only buff Jester's Hat gets that Golbin Mask doesn't, is the increased Area Unique Drop rate. So for AR you have to convince people the .5% increased drop chance outperforms straight GP bonuses.


That's literally not what the Jester's Hat does. It gives flat GP based on the item's value. That GP is in addition to any other sources of GP, so the Jester's Hat is an extra source of GP on top of all other forms of GP.
The golbin mask added GP/hr is:
20 * GP multiplier / Interval * 3600

The Jester's Hat added GP/hr is:
(Sum of all area item's value) * 1.75 * GP multiplier / (1/area drop rate) / interval * 3600

...

I honestly don't know if you're trolling or not now.

-75 Stealth while Thieving, When you pickpocket a unique item gain flat gp equal to 0.5-3x its value

Thieving Master Relic:

+0.5% chance to receive Thieving Area Unique Item
Last edited by Pandorian; 27 Jan @ 10:31pm
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