it's not so much that you get weaker for levelling up, it's that most the enemies level up with you but without their own consideration towards "efficient levelling" like the player has so they can end up growing faster than a player if the player is either too "spread out" in skills, levelling too fast to make full use of it, or just plain has a poor build. The good news is that this levelling issue IS pretty well known/discussed/dealt with.

Standard vanilla game solution is usually adjust the difficulty slider a bit and learn at least the basics of how the leveling system works. You dont have to go all min-max on it but its at least good to know how you actually get your attributes and skills to work for you rather than against you (like, making sure you always have at least one focused combat skill that can carry you, yes magic can count).

There are also mods i know deal with specifically the levelling system, i just don't mod personally so you'll have to wait for another poster to pop in with recommendations. it'll happen eventually lol.

No, no, it's that some creatures are better at levelling up than you are.
I suffered Oblivion as an OG on PS3. Paper spreadsheets, 30 FPS, 1080 "HD", and I even made the eternal mistake of le Lv 49. and a half 100 in all attributes prior to becoming addicted to Felldew, Vampirism, or touching the Crusader questlines character.

You just have to abuse the magic system ruthlessly (hint: Drain Health + Weakness to Magic) and you'll be fine. You can do "pure melee" and spam power attacks while sipping absolutely infinite Restore Fatigue potions via food items if you want to, but magic is just so much more... magical.

To be fair, a very well made, actual RPG with the ability to scale with the player across a range of difficulty settings did not exist prior to Oblivion, and still doesn't. I can't really get mad at them for making it *almost* perfect.

Originally posted by RequiemsRose:

it's not so much that you get weaker for levelling up

There is a very big asterisk here in that every character will eventually run out of relevant ways in which to improve their combat performance, and at that point further level-ups are of no further benefit and could very reasonably be called actively detrimental because the insignificant HP bonus isn't worth the additional HP that a number of high-level monsters get or the various improvements that hostile NPCs gain (although hostile NPCs are, alongside daedra, probably the easiest enemy types to fight at high level simply because they don't have the excessive HP bloat of things like Minotaur Lords, Ogres, and Goblin Warlords). In my experience, this typically happens somewhere around level 20-25, when loot mostly stops improving and your three or four primary combat skills are probably more or less capped even if they're all major skills. This is also roughly the point at which a more or less efficiently-leveled character could have capped most relevant attributes, especially if going for 5-5-5 rather than 5-5-1 attribute bonuses, and only a few levels shy of the point at which a fully efficiently-leveled 5-5-5 character could have capped every attribute except Luck, which means that the only thing you're really gaining from level-up at that point is an insignificant HP bonus.

I started a mage 20 hours ago. I just made level 3, and I'm so overpowered I'm tempted to turn up the difficulty. I'm wearing Brotherhood armor, I fight with my fists, and I use one fire spell. Every fight goes one of two ways; punch from stealth and they die, or punch from stealth + cast and they die. Only challenge so far is the contracts at the end of the Dark Brotherhood quest line ... since they're actually bosses. I had to drink healing potions with a couple of them and cast my brains out.

I used a custom class, but it's nothing but the box-stock Mage class with Alchemy switched for Blunt since I rely heavily on Alchemy and can't be levelling up every five minutes making potions out of food.

I'm not doing anything special, I'm not using efficient levelling, I'm just playing. I don't know why so many people have so much trouble. I don't even know what to tell you, you just need to conform to the vision of the game. You sound like you just read some stuff somewhere and then came here to echo it without seriously trying to play the game.

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Originally posted by Kaziklu78:

I am not a high enough level in Destruction to get a stronger spell which uses so much more magic that you could do a lot of damage with it before running out even levelled

I bought candles for the spell table at Frostcrag Spire at Level 2. I made a fire spell that does 10pts damage for 3 seconds on touch, and uses 25 magica. I have 224 magica. It kills ghosts in two casts ... so like five seconds max. I don't bother punching them since my fists don't affect ghosts.

Just been putzing around while working on my playlist. Not as good as my last guy, but still not too bad. Maybe you should just rethink what you're doing? And if you consider a game getting harder the higher you level as "punishment" you may want to take up another hobby, since all games do that.

So what I'm reading is I'm not crazy... Levelling is basically bad...

I use Destruction fairly regularly. I was able to pick up a Destruction spell that uses 48 Magicka, and does 20 damage. This kills many in 1 hit and many others in 2 or 3 max...

I play the game.. I sleep twice in a row... no skills have changed I just decide to level as I haven't up to this point... I am now 4 times less effective for the foreseeable future. My Magicka went from 205-225 (it was 225 or 218 can't recall)... not even 1 full spell use... my recharge rate isn't significantly bigger... and now the monsters I was literally just fighting require 3-4 times more damage to kill. So until I level many many more times I am going to struggle... worse though is every time I do level the monsters are going to get stronger and I'm going to get less effective until it eventually evens out. Or just lower the difficult slider as you level to make it less hard.

The Alternative is to spend a few hours reading about Efficient level... planning your skills out... and carefully using skills in a particular order in order to maximise my levels to help minimise the impact of this bad design... and then play in a particular way that take advantage of other broken mechanics to counter act the bad mechanics that are impacting me now.

The other Alternative... seems to be... just don't level use the lower gear raise your skills and use enchanted gear to raise your stats and actually feel like you are getting stronger in the game.


I mean this seems like monumentally bad design...


As for Mr... Gitgud or quit gaming how dare you saying bad things about my game... if you can't see all the bad in the game then ask your caregiver to explain it... if level up 2 times nothing else changes now you are 4 times weaker... seems normal to you... that is on you.

The game is what it is, you can look for solutions or get stuck on its flaws. Or you can mod it if that is your thing. :)

Originally posted by Kaziklu78:

So what I'm reading is I'm not crazy... Levelling is basically bad...

No, what you're reading is that you're bad at playing this game, at least at the moment. And I "dare" to imply that based on my thousands of hours experience with it and basically every RPG released since Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord.

I mean come on, who would use high casting-cost ranged spells they bought from a vendor inside the confines of a house at melee distances? Why aren't you using much less expensive and much higher damage touch-based spells if you plan to be close enough to also use your dagger? You're supposed to be a mage, why aren't you crafting your own spells?

Why are you advancing the main quest and putzing around in Anvil when you should be completing the mage guild questline to open up the Arcane University so you can get free access to the spellmaking and enchanting tables ... assuming you don't want to buy the expensive candles for Frostcrag Spire? Don't you think it might be wise to prepare a better arsenal before tackling more difficult tasks?

If you need more mana, enchant your gear for more mana. That's what mages do, there's no way to natively have enough mana for endgame spells otherwise. Pretty simple. Or you could take up Alchemy and make some mana potions. As I pointed out, I'm already making my own spells starting at Level 2, and I could be enchanting as well.

Whatever the case may be, there's no reason to be struggling with ghosts at level four unless you just don't know what you're doing. At least make a rudimentary effort to learn a game before you start blaming your own shortcomings on the design. I've enjoyed many, many games with much harsher difficulty curves than this one.

Considering your spiteful review of Elder Scrolls Online, (0.5 hours at review time) it seems you have an impediment when it comes to grasping these sorts of games. You criticized its design as well, as if everyone else's positive and satisfactory experiences were an anomaly. Obviously these aren't the kind of games you are naturally inclined towards. You should probably find something else to play.

Originally posted by -={LG}=-:

Considering your spiteful review of Elder Scrolls Online, (0.5 hours at review time) it seems you have an impediment when it comes to grasping these sorts of games. You criticized its design as well, as if everyone else's positive and satisfactory experiences were an anomaly. Obviously these aren't the kind of games you are naturally inclined towards. You should probably find something else to play.

Ya I realise you are butt hurt but if you notice the .5 hours review was all about the launcher counting as time played... when I made the initial review I hadn't even made see a title screen. but it shows .5 hours played... Which was the frustration... the rest is after I played it for dozens of hours. But sure misrepresent it...

I am happy to give a game a chance. ESO is fine... not great... fine. My review isn't spiteful.. your bias sees it as such.

But if you get over being butt hurt over someone thinking that it is bad design to call it "levelling" when you actually get less effective not more effective with each level gained... you would notice that is bad design. Going from level 2 to 4 should not make you 4 times less effective in combat.

I thought I'd give it a go...

Also why was I in Anvil... lets see... what reason would someone that was working on the Mages guild questline to get recommendations for the head of each towns mages guild be in Anvil... I don't know... I can't possibly think of a reason someone looking to get the mages guild recommendations would go to anvil. .... nope total loss. can't think of a single reason why someone working on the mages guild questline would ever go to Anvil.

I'm done with you... you aren't capable of looking beyond your own bias and distaste for anyone that doesn't love a game you do... Particularly give as it seems to be a troll account.

You need to work on minor skills each level or you will be underpowered. This takes time but go out raiding tombs and use the loot to buy better gear and supplies. Oblivion does have it's flaws such as no way in vanilla to delete spells so unless you use a mod you're stuck with obsolete spells for the entire game which makes navigating them a chore and annoying when you're forced to learn a spell you don't want or need.

Levelling up stacks and attribute points are carried over but you will lose out on the all important trainer skills you can purchase each level if you level up multiple times at once. You can buy five trainer skills per level but they don't carry over so make buying those trainer skills a priority on every level and look at your stats to decide how to allocate them. As a mage I usually use the blade trainers to bump that up.

Originally posted by joeball123:

There is a very big asterisk here in that every character will eventually run out of relevant ways in which to improve their combat performance, and at that point further level-ups are of no further benefit and could very reasonably be called actively detrimental because the insignificant HP bonus isn't worth the additional HP that a number of high-level monsters get or the various improvements that hostile NPCs gain (although hostile NPCs are, alongside daedra, probably the easiest enemy types to fight at high level simply because they don't have the excessive HP bloat of things like Minotaur Lords, Ogres, and Goblin Warlords). In my experience, this typically happens somewhere around level 20-25, when loot mostly stops improving and your three or four primary combat skills are probably more or less capped even if they're all major skills. This is also roughly the point at which a more or less efficiently-leveled character could have capped most relevant attributes, especially if going for 5-5-5 rather than 5-5-1 attribute bonuses, and only a few levels shy of the point at which a fully efficiently-leveled 5-5-5 character could have capped every attribute except Luck, which means that the only thing you're really gaining from level-up at that point is an insignificant HP bonus.

I usually stop sleeping / levelling up at Lv. 30 if I'm playing an Atronach character (for Spelldrinker), or if my actually useful Attributes (Personality and Luck are imo nearly useless) aren't done at 25.

Level 25 is best reward level for Escutcheon of Chorrol, Chillrend, Ayleid Crown of Lindai/Nenalata, and you can get Mundane Ring at Lv... 22 I think.

But yes, generally speaking, there is no real gain by going over Lv. 30.

Originally posted by Kaziklu78:

I realise you are butt hurt

Heh. Before I send you to oblivion, just thought I'd show you how it's done. Can't see why anyone would post a big rant topic and parrot all the internet mythology over something this easy. Been nice knowing you, really.

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Originally posted by Heimdall313:

But yes, generally speaking, there is no real gain by going over Lv. 30.

For me there's a necessary sense of accomplishment that comes with levelling. I rapidly lose interest if I hit a level cap, so I just keep on going until I'm finished.

Summons also really help imo.
Using summons with a mage in this game can be played in such a way that you rarely have to actually get hit or come close to an opponent.

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

you can get Mundane Ring at Lv... 22 I think.

The Mundane Ring nominally becomes available in random loot at level 20; you're probably thinking of level 22 because that's the earliest point at which you can get a guaranteed copy of it, if you haven't yet progressed beyond a certain point in the main quest.

Chillrend

Chillrend may have one of the best weapon enchantments found on a standard item, but it's not really worth waiting until level 25 to pick it up - 21 base damage, 20 Frost Damage, and 35 points Weakness to Frost on the top-level version still isn't that good at beating down Oblivion's high-level problem monsters without something else to help things along, there are a number of fairly common monsters with enough Frost Resistance to ignore a significant portion of the enchantment damage despite the included weakness effect, and the enchantment is also barely any better than straight Frost Damage against things with nontrivial Magic Resistance (mostly Minotaur Lords and Breton NPCs) while the relatively long duration of its weakness effect can be irritating against things with Spell Reflection in addition to being a bit of an inefficient use of enchantment charge.

If you're trying to kill things mostly through weapon and enchantment damage, Chillrend is probably best used at low or mid level and replaced by something with a better (custom) enchantment at high level.

Originally posted by Kaziklu78:

... thinking that it is bad design to call it "levelling" when you actually get less effective not more effective with each level gained... you would notice that is bad design. Going from level 2 to 4 should not make you 4 times less effective in combat. ...

Your mistake is that you are generalising based on your personal experiences. Oblivion doesn't hold your hand, and doesn't prevent you from making (leveling and other) decisions leading to a character "less effective in combat". You may call this (lack of handholding) a "bad design", but in fact the design just doesn't meet your expectations, or you don't understand it, or you don't use it properly (to your advantage).

In reality, Oblivion's design supports many very different ways to level up your character in an effective way (not only what many people call "efficient leveling"), but it doesn't tell you that your way is one of these or not. If you can't live with this, Oblivion may not be the right game for you.

Leveling system in Oblivion is bad.

If you just go into it willy nilly, you'll end up in a situation where just about everything can murder you immediately because, regardless of your level, you won't have the foundation to handle the fights anymore.

If you don't want to get murdered easily, you have to assign garbage skills as majors and necessary skills as minors. This lets you build up a proper foundation without leveling up and keeps level scaling in check. When ready, you level up by advancing your garbage majors and proceed from there.

By and large, it's a trash system.