Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

But I think most game developers are totally clueless as to what makes a game enjoyable when they rely so heavily on rare RNG chances to begin with.

If you find yourself compelled to save-scum in video games, perhaps it is you that does not understand what makes a game enjoyable.

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

But I think most game developers are totally clueless as to what makes a game enjoyable when they rely so heavily on rare RNG chances to begin with.

If you find yourself compelled to save-scum in video games, perhaps it is you that does not understand what makes a game enjoyable.

In this game the way IC is done? You basically have to. Nobody goes "hey I'm just gonna blacksmith some mats and wear whatever spits out" They have a desired piece of gear, sometimes with desired factors. Virtually everyone save scums for it. Especially like I said the way they organized it, the bottom item has the lowest chance of being crafted in any IC specialty, It's so that even if you have 100% chance of success, you have like 10% chance of even getting the base item you're looking for even disregarding factors.

Well, the crafting is definitely not perfect, but, otoh, people do save scum to get around even fair and reasonable systems if they don't like the outcome. It's just part of human nature, people like being rewarded and hate being punished, nothing that can really be done about it.

Originally posted by Second Duke Revier:

Well, the crafting is definitely not perfect, but, otoh, people do save scum to get around even fair and reasonable systems if they don't like the outcome. It's just part of human nature, people like being rewarded and hate being punished, nothing that can really be done about it.

Yeah there's a lot of things that get save scummed in this because of how random everything is. I think IC is the most glaring though. They did fix the need to save scum starting talents aside from the one thorn in the side they put to deliberately screw with completionists (Celine Love of Animals). But people will still scum item spawning things like goodie boxes early game when they're rare, and pickpocketing certain things early on (Kurik). But most of that is pretty early game. IC will keep people save scumming the entire game, because They'll do their 2 attempts with a food buff, fill their inventory with outright junk, and then rather than walk over to a store, sell all the garbage, resupply with mats (because stack sizes are so low is another issue with the IC system, you pretty much have to resupply after every 2 attempts to craft 10 items), navigate the menus to eat another food buff, then do your orchestra or arrival of the goddess and try IC again..... or you can just, save after you have eaten food and keep reloading that save until IC spits out a result you want to keep rather than 20 items of trash.

It'd have solved it if you could pick which item you were crafting rather than them randomly pulling from a list, and if they made remaking have some filters or setting favorite ingredients or something to speed up the process so that remaking didn't take so much time each attempt and so you could.. IC a base item, then remake it to get desired factors. But because the menu navigation is tedious for remake, it's just faster to reload and IC for any item that comes from IC and reserve remake for items that you cannot IC... and both end up having to be save scummed because of relying on low chances and getting a lot of utter garbage.

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

In this game the way IC is done? You basically have to. Nobody goes "hey I'm just gonna blacksmith some mats and wear whatever spits out"

That's exactly what most people do. Because min-maxing gear isn't necessary.

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

In this game the way IC is done? You basically have to. Nobody goes "hey I'm just gonna blacksmith some mats and wear whatever spits out"

That's exactly what most people do. Because min-maxing gear isn't necessary.

absolute BS, any guide written, any video done, people are save scumming to get results and advising others do the same.

Literally nobody with an above room temperature IQ says "I need this piece of gear, oh, IC spit out a bunch of cloaks and necklaces I have no use for? Good enough"

Like there's only 2 ways to go about IC, and both of them involve Tri-ace or Gemdrops reevaluating how IC was implemented because neither truly works well.

1. Casual player totally ignores IC and never uses it, plays on Earth difficulty and just uses whatever gear is in the shops or chests and doesn't do post game.
2. People who do use IC save scum to get usable results.

There is no option 3 where people use IC, and just use whatever it spits out and accept it.
If you're so casual you don't care about your gear, you aren't using IC at all, which is skipping major component of the game, and Tri-ace/Gemdrops should reevaluate the implementation of a system that so many players just ignore.

Either the devs are the room temperature IQ guys who just think people will actively use IC but just accept whatever results it spits out when most of it is vendor trash... or they're aware that people will just save scum it so they intentionally made it really low rates to intentionally make it tedious. Just to be jerks. It doesn't really do anything for them to invest in a system that people just ignore.

I think the game has bigger problems. The RNG aspect that's in the specialty systems is just another factor in the crazy balancing problem.

How are the devs supposed to know who played with big exp modifiers vs. the guy that went overboard on oracle or summoning birds.

It's probably better just to assume there was never an expectation of balance to begin with and people are free to break the game as they wish.

Originally posted by Neosiotype:

I think the game has bigger problems. The RNG aspect that's in the specialty systems is just another factor in the crazy balancing problem.

How are the devs supposed to know who played with big exp modifiers vs. the guy that went overboard on oracle or summoning birds.

It's probably better just to assume there was never an expectation of balance to begin with and people are free to break the game as they wish.

Well I'm sure they're aware of how easy it is to break the game and left it, because people do enjoy breaking the game. But I don't think anyone truly enjoys how random IC is and like I said I think the bulk of people either ignore IC or save scum through it.
I've never heard someone say "I like that when I customize I routinely get worse items than I put in, it makes the game more interesting to get a bunch of vendor trash"

and to be clear I'm not talking about outright failures where it's literally a "skill issue" not having high enough skills and not using the song to boost success rates.. but rather that making each item isn't an individual thing in most cases but pulled from a random list of 3+ outcomes, the first 2 of which are usually pure junk that might as well be failures.

and I'm even kind of disregarding factors in this case. Factors can be adjusted through remake and that too needs something to make it less tedious of a system, the current way also reinforces save scumming, not getting rare factors even when using 5 masterworks + food buff, when aiming for a buff factor like +20% defense, or when aiming for support and special factors you either can't use all masterworks, or you have a significant chance at getting the wrong factor type (buff when aiming for special or support for instance) so if you eliminate those chances you have a lot of non rare factors, and its a tedious system to go scrolling through menus multiple times.

But at the very least, IC needs more WYSIWYG outputs rather than grab bag outputs.

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

That's exactly what most people do. Because min-maxing gear isn't necessary.

absolute BS, any guide written, any video done, people are save scumming to get results and advising others do the same.

Literally nobody with an above room temperature IQ says "I need this piece of gear, oh, IC spit out a bunch of cloaks and necklaces I have no use for? Good enough"

You have no idea how most people interact with the game.

People writing guides and following guides to min/max are like less than 10% of players. Your head is stuck somewhere in the lower half of your own anatomy.

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

absolute BS, any guide written, any video done, people are save scumming to get results and advising others do the same.

Literally nobody with an above room temperature IQ says "I need this piece of gear, oh, IC spit out a bunch of cloaks and necklaces I have no use for? Good enough"

You have no idea how most people interact with the game.

People writing guides and following guides to min/max are like less than 10% of players. Your head is stuck somewhere in the lower half of your own anatomy.

You're so full of it.

Nobody
NO BODY WHAT SO EVER
engages with IC, and just accepts whatever results it spits out.

The casual players you claim to represent
don't touch IC at all.
and that's an issue in of itself.
It doesn't say the system is good the way it is.
It says it's such a mess that people just don't bother with it, or those that do, engage in save scumming to deal with it's problems.

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

You're so full of it.

Nobody
NO BODY WHAT SO EVER
engages with IC, and just accepts whatever results it spits out.

Imagine being so extremely confident and so wrong at the same time.

Right now, I never needed to reset the game over IC once. You get so much money that it doesn't matter. I reseted once over some failed PA mistakes but that was it. I am spamming books for my party as it is and didn't have to reset for any supposed failures so far.

Originally posted by Ice-Nine:

Originally posted by Unhappy Camper:

You're so full of it.

Nobody
NO BODY WHAT SO EVER
engages with IC, and just accepts whatever results it spits out.

Imagine being so extremely confident and so wrong at the same time.

You said "most people" yourself. Smells like hypocrisy.

Why would someone use the crafting system for garbage items? Especially, when you have to give up money or resources to get these things. An intelligent person would know to save scum to try again, rather then waste time grinding for more materials.

These types of crafting are very RNG heavy and are usually quite boring.

Originally posted by Storm Reaver:

You said "most people" yourself. Smells like hypocrisy.

Why would someone use the crafting system for garbage items? Especially, when you have to give up money or resources to get these things. An intelligent person would know to save scum to try again, rather then waste time grinding for more materials.

These types of crafting are very RNG heavy and are usually quite boring.

Not sure how far I am in the game but at lv40, I get 170k fols for doing nothing and I can just bird materials and tools to make tons of stuff. Not to mention copy about anything and upgrade those. It's part of the game and it's ludicrously easy. So yeah, you know...