Aotenjo

Aotenjo

:) 20 Aug @ 4:41pm
Love the game, LOTS of feedback!
I've been having a blast with this game, it's been great to see changes get implemented so quickly so I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring.

Reordering artifacts in the shop- I see that they're draggable in the shop now, but they don't actually get reordered, they just go back to where they were when you release them.

Show the wall better- it's a bit annoying to see what you have left when it's just everything you have in order. The numbers on the side are a big help, but if I want to see how many of several different tiles I have left at the same time, it's a lot of manual counting. Maybe it would be good to have every tile type shown just once with a count under it (ex. show the white dragon tile, and under it show the text "x3"), and when you hover over it, it can expand out to show the exact tiles- ie, the material, text and fu.

Show how many of a tile are remaining when hovered over in the hand- would be a huge convenience change

Let us reorder tiles when we play them- this would allow us to optimize things like placing jade tiles after agate tiles.

Organize yaku better- the yaku menu is pretty messy to navigate. It would be nice to have a way to sort them by fan (either at their highest activation or at their fan value on your current turn), by the number of times you've played them, by level, by which book they belong to, etc. It would also be nice to grey out ones that are currently impossible to complete with what you've already played.

Reduce number of plays before unlocking yaku- it's pretty annoying to have to play certain patterns up to 6 times to start getting points for them. I'm pretty skeptical of this system, but if you're going to have it, maybe make it less of a chore to unlock them manually. It also seems arbitrary how many plays are required to unlock a certain pattern. It even feels bad when you're one away from manually unlocking it, and then you unlock it on your next book- it feels like wasted effort.

Partial credit for locked/level 0 yaku- I'm not sure what determines which yaku you get "partial credit" for before unlocking them, and that's a problem. I think this partial credit thing does a decent job of alleviating the annoyance of not getting credit for making good patterns, but it feels random which ones give partial credit and which ones don't. Why does a level 0 full flush give me 1.5 fan, but a level 0 middle tiles gives me 0? Why does one voided suit start at level 0, but a half flush starts at level 1? Why does a pure double sequence give fan even when it's a "???"?It's a confusing system, and it's frustrating to activate 4 yaku simultaneously early game and get absolutely nothing for it.

??? patterns- I don't like this system at all. In Balatro, there's a few hidden hands you can make- but there are just three of them, and they feel pretty natural or like things you can easily stumble into while playing. This system as it is now feels like it would turn away players who are new to mahjong, as it punishes experimentation and going for new things, since you need to go for bizarre hands, get a ??? in the played yaku list, try to figure out what exactly triggered it, and then try to do that again 5 more times in the same run while also trying to survive, all the while (usually) getting absolutely nothing in terms of score for that pattern. There are so many patterns (that don't exist in regular mahjong, either) that even experienced players are more likely to stick to the many patterns they already know than spend a bunch of effort experimenting. This game doesn't currently have a wiki, so this system is especially unfriendly. I understand that for players new to mahjong, it may be overwhelming to have all the patterns thrown at them at once, and I think unlocking them through books/play is a good way to trickle them in; however, I've played for a dozen hours and I still have loads of locked patterns. If you absolutely must have this system, then have the ??? show up in the played yaku list *one time, ever* and then after you play it, show the actual pattern forever, even in new runs. Also, perhaps give increased chances to unlock brand-new yaku when buying books, so that you can learn more over time more reliably.

With all three of the above- it really sucks to be down to the wire, and you realize you can make a really high-value yaku, but you don't have it unlocked so it's worth absolutely nothing. Moments like that should feel like a clever triumph when you needed it most, rather than a slap in the face right before you lose anyway since you aren't rewarded for many patterns until they're fully unlocked.

What does "inherited" mean in the fan listing when hovering over a yaku? I have absolutely no idea. I've really tried to think about it, but I can't come up with what makes it show up and what it's trying to convey.

Make single-play yaku more rewarding (13 orphans, 7 pairs)- these hands are really not worth it. It's usually a big risk to go for them, their fan values are low for their difficulty, it's extremely hard to combine them with other patterns (which consequently makes them very hard to scale with books, since they are both yellow rarity), your tile materials, tile fu, tile text, yaku, and artifacts only get to activate one single time rather than 4, and even if you play them without skipping a single turn for more discards you get the same score as if you use all your skips and discard a ton of tiles to get there. They also have pretty bad artifact support- the void cauldron or whatever punishes you for getting, say, a full flush 7 pairs hand. What is that? These really need some help. One way would be to give them a higher value the fewer turns you've skipped, the inverse of how other patterns work by giving more fan the later you activate it- or by having the option to have the hand re-scored every turn you have remaining. With the lack of targeted yaku leveling, going for a hand like this consistently just isn't rewarding enough.

Show what leveling a yaku does- when a yaku is leveled, let us see what the values changed from/to when we hover over the yaku.

Have yaku base fan values listed in the "choose a deck" yaku list. Might inspire players to build around yaku they haven't given a try yet, if they see something worth more than they expected. Helps encourage experimentation!

Let us see what's next- show what the next round is and what the next boss is from Zhou's store and on the path. Helps planning. Also show a number of rounds remaining until the boss, for people not familiar with mahjong round ordering.

List somewhere some information on table winds- when playing the winds are displayed as ex. "east - south." A new player won't know which wind is the prevalent wind, and which is the round wind. Another issue with that is the wording- in majsoul, for example, the wind yakuhai are separated as "Seat Wind- win a hand with a triplet of Player Wind" and "Prevalent Wind- Win a hand with a triplet of Round Wind" whereas aotenjo lists round wind and prevalent wind as different things, so even I as a semi-experienced mahjong player don't know which is which in this game. Fix up the wording, and add a mouseover to the winds to say which is which.

Put in an actual score calculator- This one might be a long shot, but as long as a hand is deterministic (no ore tiles or random chance involved), it would be *very* nice to just have the entirety of a hand's score calculated, rather than the raw fu + fan which doesn't take many things into account. A minimum value could be given to account for random chances. I know some people are opposed to this, but even if it were just an option it would be nice. This is probably the least-likely suggestion to be implemented, but I thought I'd throw it in :)

Let us sell gadgets, or not take them for a bonus. Even if it's just for a pittance, it would make getting useless gadgets feel less bad, or reward players who just don't like playing with them (beyond that one artifact.)

Show which books level up a pattern- this should be in the yaku list both when playing and in the "choose a deck" yaku list. Some of the pattern-book relationships aren't very intuitive, so this would help a lot.

Give a count of how many red text tiles are in your deck under the red log artifact- this type of QoL would be nice to have on several similar artifacts.

Void Stele- This one most needs the above QoL. Better describe what a "fully activated" pattern is, and list which patterns it has already seen.

Shredder- ALWAYS show the tier of pattern required, rather than just once when the tier changes, and show how much is left before the tier needed changes. List in the shop that this will happen. Add a confirmation before eating any pattern, showing how much fan it will add, so that players won't accidentally feed it a pattern that will give 0 fan, and so they can weigh how much value they will get out of a feed. It will also give a chance to prevent players from accidentally deleting the wrong thing.

Note somewhere that you can't combine some gadgets- for example, you can't use the rice to change a 6 bam to a 5 bam, then use the brush to make it a 5 char- it instead becomes a 6 char.

The wording on 9 gates needs some work. As, again, a semi-experienced mahjong player who knows how the 9 gates works in regular mahjong, I really struggled to see how the wording in aotenjo would work in game. The answer is that it doesn't, at all. The wording "holding" the tiles, having the waits, etc has absolutely nothing to do with how you activate the yaku in-game. Needs a complete rewrite.

Double numbered pung also needs clarification that the pung need to be of the same suit, it's ambiguous as written currently

Adjust wording on permanent gadgets to make it absolutely clear that they stick around after being used and carry over/recharge between rounds even if you fully use them up. The current wording is still a little ambiguous.

Character tiles don't have enough going on- dots and bamboo have way more support, both in terms of yaku (all green for bamboo, no red for bamboo and dots), better artifacts, and better gadgets (bamboo and dots get the marker permanent gadget AND sticky rice which affect both those suits, characters just get tape which only affects that suit and only gives increases, and its permanent gadget is more of a dragon synergy thing than a character synergy one).

Quitting out in a shop- this puts you back in the previous round. Definitely needs changed.

Show how the aotenjo bonus thresholds are calculated- will help new players make sense of this system.

Show the money bonus for skipping and discards remaining while playing- will help players do the calculus to see if it's worth it to go for more aotenjo bonus or settle for their current hand.

Let us see materials and text colors in the collection, not just in the deck selection- currently, there's no place to see the effects of all the text colors. There's also no listing for corrupted or cracked tiles. Keep their listing in the deck selection, but also put them all in one place so we can see everything.

Show gadgets in the collection- again, helps make the collection feel more complete, and gives players a spot to review what's available to them.

And the most minor thing I noticed- there are definitely still plenty of typos and such in the game, but the only one I wrote down was that the last locked deck has "Ying Yang" patterns, this should instead be "Yin Yang." Common misspelling!

I'm really excited to see where this game goes. I hope my notes are helpful in some way!
Last edited by :); 20 Aug @ 6:07pm
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Showing 1-3 of 3 comments
>Reduce number of plays before unlocking yaku

+1. In my mind another (even more severe) problem is that high-value yakus do not give progress to unlocking implied yakus (i.e. playing a pure straight should give you progress to unlock short straight as well, full flush for half flush etc.). As it is now you are often incentivised to play significantly lower value hands to unlock the easier yaku which feels unintuitive and bad

Related: hands should be valued at the highest value with the yakus you have unlocked (if I don't have pure straight unlocked I should be "allowed" to count it as short straight * 2 instead)
[quote=:)

Partial credit for locked/level 0 yaku- I'm not sure what determines which yaku you get "partial credit" for before unlocking them, and that's a problem. I think this partial credit thing does a decent job of alleviating the annoyance of not getting credit for making good patterns, but it feels random which ones give partial credit and which ones don't. Why does a level 0 full flush give me 1.5 fan, but a level 0 middle tiles gives me 0? Why does one voided suit start at level 0, but a half flush starts at level 1? Why does a pure double sequence give fan even when it's a "???"?It's a confusing system, and it's frustrating to activate 4 yaku simultaneously early game and get absolutely nothing for it.


[/quote]

For what it's worth, you're not getting partial credit, you're getting credit for the "inherited" yakus. Full Flush, for example, isn't giving you 1.5 fan at level 0, you're getting credit for Half Flush (which starts unlocked).

Originally posted by :):
What does "inherited" mean in the fan listing when hovering over a yaku? I have absolutely no idea. I've really tried to think about it, but I can't come up with what makes it show up and what it's trying to convey.

"Inherited" in the fan listing basically means you're getting the points for the lower-tier yakus that are implicit to the higher tier ones. (though it's a bit weird)

Originally posted by :):
Make single-play yaku more rewarding (13 orphans, 7 pairs)- these hands are really not worth it. It's usually a big risk to go for them, their fan values are low for their difficulty, it's extremely hard to combine them with other patterns (which consequently makes them very hard to scale with books, since they are both yellow rarity), your tile materials, tile fu, tile text, yaku, and artifacts only get to activate one single time rather than 4, and even if you play them without skipping a single turn for more discards you get the same score as if you use all your skips and discard a ton of tiles to get there. They also have pretty bad artifact support- the void cauldron or whatever punishes you for getting, say, a full flush 7 pairs hand. What is that? These really need some help. One way would be to give them a higher value the fewer turns you've skipped, the inverse of how other patterns work by giving more fan the later you activate it- or by having the option to have the hand re-scored every turn you have remaining. With the lack of targeted yaku leveling, going for a hand like this consistently just isn't rewarding enough.

(for what it's worth, seven pairs is only a bluepattern, though i do agree that they feel bad to go for)

Originally posted by Swagstablook:
>Reduce number of plays before unlocking yaku

+1. In my mind another (even more severe) problem is that high-value yakus do not give progress to unlocking implied yakus (i.e. playing a pure straight should give you progress to unlock short straight as well, full flush for half flush etc.). As it is now you are often incentivised to play significantly lower value hands to unlock the easier yaku which feels unintuitive and bad

Related: hands should be valued at the highest value with the yakus you have unlocked (if I don't have pure straight unlocked I should be "allowed" to count it as short straight * 2 instead)
High value yakus do give progress to the yakus they inherit score from? I just tried this with Pure/Short straights (playing the 1-2-3 and 7-8-9 sequences first, then the middle 4-5-6 one (over two rounds) unlocked Short Straight, despite never having played one divorced from a Pure Straight)

And, as mentioned, not-unlocked higher-tier hands do score as their lower-tier counterparts. So, not unlocked Pure Straight counts as 3 fan if you have Short Straight unlocked but not it.
木羽  [developer] 8 Sep @ 2:49pm 
Hi! I think people have made clarification about the inheritance system. I have been redesigning the whole pattern unlocking system. It should be working when the game releases! Regards to all the QoL stuffs mentioned, I can tell you that we are making our best efforts in improving player experience! There will be a major update to the demo before the release, and we will see how it goes!
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