What were you fighting?

It may be the game bugged out and the dev need to patch it but I have a sneaking suspicion you may be fighting something with stupid high magic resistance. The game engine tries to mimic AD&D 2nd Ed rule back then and 2nd Ed rule kind of break down at very high level especially with planar being that have both magic and some form of damage resistance. It could be like when you cast Celestial Host, the enemy make the resistance roll and then when you hit it with meteor bombardment, it fail magic resistance but the thing may have fire resistance and half the damage. Magic missile (and some low level spell) is kind of broken against high level resistance opponent because it does 1d4+1 damage per missile. Firstly, since it's not elemental damage, so creature with high fire, frost or acid damage resistance still take full damage. And if I remember correctly, they did not put a limit to the number of missile, a super high level character can throw out like 10 missiles. So against high damage and magic resistant enemy, these guys only take minimum damage from spells, but due to the way magic missile is structure (Minimum 10 x 1d4+1 = 20 vs. Minimum 10d6= 10) , its minimum damage ends up higher.

And to make matter worse, the mage may be able to cast 1 to 2 spell that does Character Level x d6 damage per day but he could throw out like 10 magic missile spell per day making magic missile much more powerful at high level. Yeah, 2nd Ed is kind of broken :p

Yeah, it might just be some 2e rules ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ , but ...wow. It kinda feels like high level mage spells are more or less useless :P Once you reach level 5-6 spells you've kinda peaked.

I mean, Baldur's Gate also used 2E rules if I'm not mistaken, and I can't think of a time it ever felt quite this broken.....

I just feel like the spell balance in Torment is really ... off.

For example, Cloudkill can kill an infinite number of high level enemies instantly, but cast Fire & Ice (a higher level spell) and you can only hope to slightly damage the same group of creatures. If I find a mob, I cloudkill it every time.

Some spells also give the creatures/npc's a reflex save to receive half damage or avoid it all to gether, spells that hit a single target often don't have this.

Think low level spells are OP now? be glad there is no "maximize spell" and "empower spell" feats.

Originally posted by Aldereth:

Yeah, 2nd Ed is kind of broken :p

Haha I totally agree, but it's what we played and made the most of it, eh?

I'm still torn as to what character class to decide on... The decision is looming ahead the more I progress. Are the clerical spells equally as wonky? I just can't decide if I want to deal with the magic system that much yet.

2nd Edition definitely has some quirks to it, including the fact that there are massive gaps in the bonuses and perks of stats, and ridiculous barriers to entry to playing certain classes.

I'd say in this case though, you're facing more the limitations of spells in the game, as they didn't really put in all that many high level spells and some of them aren't even canonical spells, they are spells that only exist in Torment to my knowledge.

My issue, if anything, is simply that there aren't enough high level spells. I'm not sure I'd say all the high level spells are weak either, I remember Mechanus Cannon packing a punch. But by the later portion of the game, getting those high level spells like Abyssal Fury and Deathbolt at the last second is sort of like an afterthought you may barely get to use.

High level spells 'suck' because of the specific resistances of the mobs in this game. In Undersigil for example, you can kill on average kill 4-5 worms in a group of 6 when you cast level 5 cloudkill. The spell allows for a save but they seem to have a low poison saving throw. These mobs have very high resistances against all sorts of elemental damage however, so things like fire/iceball and lightning storm will do very little damage to them.

That point about the specific resistances of certain enemies is a valid one, especially when dealing with higher level monsters that usually are supposed to have pretty high damage reduction, spell resistance, and resistances to elements. Those things aren't mechanically spelled out for you in Torment, but they do exist.

Originally posted by Unsolicited Eruption:

I mean, Baldur's Gate also used 2E rules if I'm not mistaken, and I can't think of a time it ever felt quite this broken.....

I just feel like the spell balance in Torment is really ... off.

For example, Cloudkill can kill an infinite number of high level enemies instantly, but cast Fire & Ice (a higher level spell) and you can only hope to slightly damage the same group of creatures. If I find a mob, I cloudkill it every time.

PST combat balance is not perfect, true. To be fair, BG never reach the kind of levels where AD&D2E start to break down. BG2 is just getting close to there. So that's like complaining about classical physics theory doesn't work in a subatomic environment.

For PS:T mage, the high level spell Rune of Torment is the most effective as it is an unique spell developed for the game and it worked against most damage resistance.

But seriously, due to the sheer number of low level spell one can cast, it's actually better to use low level spell at high level. And spells that reflect damage back to attackers are unusally effective. Sometimes, it's better to just throw spell like that on Morte or TNO and let the enemies kill themselves. Further due to the high number of lower plane creatures present, most creature have fire resistant, meantime, most of them are not resistant to poison. The way I look at it from a roleplaying angle is since TNO have godlike intelligence and wisdom (>18 INT and WIS), so act like it. Minmax the heck out of a broken system :p

Originally posted by EbonHawk:

Originally posted by Aldereth:

Yeah, 2nd Ed is kind of broken :p

Haha I totally agree, but it's what we played and made the most of it, eh?

Amen to that, bro. As much as I know how broken 2e was, I kind of like it over the fairer system. Partly due to nostalgia and partly because you can use the bugs of the system to do something incredible and with the right GM/DM who balance the between drama and maintaining rules, it can create memory of a life time for a gaming group.

Originally posted by EbonHawk:

I'm still torn as to what character class to decide on... The decision is looming ahead the more I progress. Are the clerical spells equally as wonky? I just can't decide if I want to deal with the magic system that much yet.

Are you talking about PST or actual tabletop 2e? If PST, only Fall from Grace have access to cleric spell and she never get to very high levels. As support she is okay, and it is actually better to abuse her demonic (oops, pardon me, Tunaric) resistance during combat.

If you are talking about actual tabletop 2e (do people still play 2e?!), I remember it's a bit better but not by much. For starters since 2e cleric is basically the only healer (yeah druid and paladin can heal to but to a lesser extent) in the game, and most of the stuff is cast on party so by default you don't have to worry about magic resistant. For combat, it's much better to summon a crap ton of stuff and let them be your party meat shield. And when the enemy is engaged with your summoned creature and packed into a nice tight area. Blade Barrier everything.

I remembered playing a game with high level cleric, druid and mage that really demonstrate how broken the system can be. Some of the low level summoning spell last so long that they may as well be permanent. And the player can cast so many of them. That party essentially march with an army of summoned at all times, They don't even deal with any lesser encounter. It's like GM/DM rolled a random encounter of a group of bandit:

DM: a group of bandits spotted the party.
Players: So. We will continue playing cards. Point at the literal army of summoned.
DM: the bandits look at the massive group of armed demihuman guarding the group and wisely decide to flee.
Players: Ummm... Direct the summons to give chase to make sure they stay away.
DM: the bandits dropped their weapons and valuable to slow the pursuit. I believe you just rob them. I really should review your party's lawful and good alignment ; )

Yes, sorry, just for Planescape game. Don't have the time to commit to tabletop stuff anymore, sadly. Thanks for the info. I started a new thread so we don't derail this one any more than we have.

resurrectionZZZ...
please know that there ARE spells in PST that bypass magic resistance entirely. you just have to experiment to find them. I will give ONE hint:
level 7 spell that says it produces ice shards. ice SHARDS do physical damage. yes, bladestorm bypasses magic and elemental resistance.