Mentally Interesting: What loneliness is

Mentally Interesting Episode 920 January 2022bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast
Presented by Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy
Music-Featuring upcoming clips.
Mark- This is Mentally Interesting with Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy.
Seaneen- And we’re here on your Ouch feed throughout January 2022. We’re friends with mental health difficulties and we love talking about all that crazy mad stuff that it brings. Mark- And in this episode we’re going to be talking about another amazingly on-brand, on-topic subject for us, which is loneliness.
Seaneen- Hooray.
Mark- But don’t worry, we’re also going to be talking about the opposite of loneliness which is the nice things like how the internet can be a lovely place, how people can be kind and how we can all find places to belong. 
Seaneen- Our guest is Shuranjeet Singh who works to improve how mental health is dealt with in Punjabi communities.
Mark- And at the end of the episode we will be having another brand new, fantastic, amazing unheralded feature, and this time it’s about the death of Seaneen Molloy.
Seaneen- Just to say I died for a bet. 
Mark- So, listen to the end of the episode to find out what the devil that’s all about. 
[Music] Seaneen, loneliness, is it something you experience? 
Seaneen- Yeah, I mean all my life basically. Did you ever hear the quote by Mary Shelley? It’s “loneliness, the word has more horror than hell itself” which I thought was a great quote. I think just the actual experience of living with a mental health problem makes you lonely because you sort of always feel a bit different. 
Mark- Yeah.
Seaneen- When I was a teenager I just felt like I was on a different planet to everyone else. To be fair I behaved that way as well. Total space cadet. 
Mark- Which planet was it?
Seaneen- The planet of first ever manic episode, which was the planet where I thought I was a famous comedian and was going to be famous in London. And didn’t sleep for about a year it felt like, but was only a couple of months. I just felt different, and I’ve always felt different. And I think my mental health has sort of scuppered quite a lot of my life. Like it ruined my education. I had to drop out of school because of my mental health. I had a couple of interesting employment experiences, let’s put it that way. And that’s what everyone talks about, isn’t it, they talk about their education and their jobs. And I feel like I have to lie a little bit about what happened and I feel like I can’t really be honest about my experiences. And it just makes me feel a bit like a lonely sad sack. 
Mark- Yeah, I used to have that loads. When I was much younger, when I was at school, people used to call me glaky, which in Newcastle where I’m from glaky means like a bit not quite all there. And the kind of boy I was, I was kind of a bit clever and I read loads of books. And one of the things about loneliness I think is not having anyone around you who can meet you halfway in the things that you’re interested in and the things that you’re kind of thinking about. And I found it really, really hard because Newcastle was a bit of football, booze, birds, fighting kind of place, and that’s not really where I was coming from. When I was very young I kind of spent ages feeling like I somehow by some strange accident had become this creature, why isn’t there a world for me to live in. Going back to Mary Shelley actually, very much like the monster from Frankenstein’s monster, like you’ve made me but not made me a world to live in. And I spent so much time when I was younger just in a very, very stereotypical way just tramping the streets in my German army coat with a pretentious paperback sticking out of my pocket in the hope that some friendly lovely poet/artist would just spot me and go, oh you’re reading a book there and it’s by an author, would you like to come to our house and we could sit on rugs and we could discuss art and beauty. 
Seaneen- Oh, we would have been friends if we’d known each other. I was very similar. I didn’t really rock the German army stripes or leopard print. I was just like I’m a Manic’s fan, come and talk to me about the Manic Street Preachers and we’ll be friends forever, just like signposting so someone would come and be my friend and invite me to their house, and maybe we’d have dinner. I don’t know. What do people do in people’s houses?
Mark- I still don’t know what people do in people’s houses. When I go round to people’s houses I just kind of sit there waiting to be offered biscuits. And then they go, would you like a biscuit. And I go, oh no thank you, no thank you, as though I was like five or something. 
Seaneen- This was the good thing about the internet though because suddenly there are almost too many people that have your interests.  
Mark- The arrival of the internet in kind of 2002 when I was unemployed was kind of a really big turning point for me, because even then I was like 23, 24 I think, and I still didn’t really know who I was supposed to be, and I didn’t really know who I was supposed to be with. And I’d kind of meet people socially and stuff like that and I would just feel like all of my words sounded like two lumps of iron banging together or a load of bricks falling into a well, when everyone else’s conversation was all light and airy and sounded like xylophones and windchimes. And I just thought there’s no place for me to talk about the stuff that’s really important to me. And it feels like when you don’t get a chance to talk about what’s important it just kind of goes off inside of you like some salad in the bottom of the fridge.
Seaneen- Curdling milk going all lumpy and sour.
Mark- Yeah, it starts off all pristine and lovely and like it might go somewhere, you might make a beautiful sandwich of yourself, but then by the end of it it’s just like, like you say, a load of lumps and brown liquid. It was like an absolute revelation to find that there might be other communities, there might be other places, there might be other people not limited by like geographical exposure. Was that like that for you?
Seaneen- Yeah. I mean, right just a quick background on Belfast. So, I’m from Belfast and back in the day when I was a teenager they’d only really just had the Good Friday Agreement. The Good Friday Agreement, for anyone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about, was something signed on Good Friday in 1998, which was basically ending the civil war in Northern Ireland between Loyalists and Republicans. It was establishing a devolved government, so we have the Northern Ireland Assembly now, so we weren’t being ruled entirely from Westminster. And it was keeping the question about a united Ireland on the table. So, it was a really, really massive thing in Northern Ireland. We got leaflets through the door, that’s how big it was. And it’s still a massively important thing; it’s basically how Northern Ireland is governed, and everyone sort of has to adhere to its principles. The city is pretty much segregated across political lines and Republican or Loyalist areas. 
I grew up in a Republican area so I grew up on like a Republican estate, and it was hard to socialise outside your area, outside your patch because you never really knew how you were going to be received by the other side. There was only really one place in the city centre where kind of weirdos would congregate. And honest to God it was like the best peace project in the world because it was people coming from all parts of the city without regard for the other person’s religion, and being friends. But you had to really put an effort in to finding those kinds of spaces. And putting effort in as a teenager with a mental illness was quite difficult. So, I took a lot of solace in the internet. I would go round to people’s houses just to use their internet. I was absolutely fascinated by it. It was just like I kind of got a bit addicted, I still am, I kind of got hooked. And when I was lonely in my bedroom the internet was sort of my window to the world really, it was my gateway to feeling like I was, I don’t know, part of a community, that I belonged somewhere. 
Mark- God, I feel proper jealous now because like…
Seaneen- You were 23 yeah, I was a teen. 
Mark- Yeah. Like when I was a teenager you were limited to what you could see, what you could hold and who you could meet. I remember when I left school I was unemployed and when I was 19 my Friday night and Saturday night was ridiculously sad: I would get some cans, drink them at home preening myself in front of the mirror, putting my make-up on, dancing in front of the mirror, getting nicely sauced up, and then I’d go into the centre of Newcastle on my own and I would go to a club and then just sit nodding my head along with the music in the hope that something would happen. And sometimes it did and sometimes it was good, and sometimes it was less good, but it wasn’t like a social life. 
And my life really only started when I left Newcastle I think. I moved as far away as I could initially to Oxford, and then I moved to Surrey, and then I moved to London to go to university. And I was still kind of chasing that idea that somewhere there’s a place for us, like in West Side Story, [singing] somewhere. Do you still feel like that that sense of loneliness and isolation, of feeling weird and then having almost like a certificate to prove you were weird kind of sticks with you?
Seaneen- I never have really found my group. I’ve never really felt there was a group of people or a place I really belong. And I still feel that way. Like when I left London it was almost like I never existed there. I left no mark, you know what I mean?
Mark- Well, you left me.
Seaneen- I left you, I left my Mark. But I didn’t really leave like a group of friends or anything. I mean, the internet is great, I’m very positive about it, but the problem is when you invest too much in those relationships you kind of neglect your relationships offline with people. And I think I’ve never really put as much effort into meeting people in real life because at my kind of heart I’m an introvert.
Mark- Me too.
Seaneen- And I don’t really want people in my space. I like living in a city partly for the anonymity. Although Belfast is a bit of a weird city in that sense because it is a bit like everyone knows your name kind of thing. Everyone will know your ma; someone will know your family.
Mark- I wouldn’t be able to hack that at all.
Seaneen- I get in a taxi it’s like, oh what’s your name. Seaneen. Oh what’s your surname. Molloy. Ah, you’re Jo’s niece. It’s like, yes I am. 
Mark- Oh no, that fills me with terror. I have this kind of weird thing about like a fear of being too known and too intricately involved in other people’s lives. Maybe that comes from that sense of feeling very, very visible when I was younger from not being very well, being a bit weird, being glaky, being 6ft 4 which does make you a bit noticeable as well. I sometimes feared that were I to become too intimate and too involved with people that A, I could be cast out if I did the wrong thing; and B, I’d be some kind of terrible, terrible, terrible cost for that. That feeling of feeling lesser because of having experienced mental health difficulties when I was younger still comes through in my reticence to get super involved with people as I get older. 
Seaneen- I’m the same. And it is partly because I still live with mental illness but it’s less visible because I am more introverted. There are things I can’t do basically because of it. like I can’t cook for example; I will burn the house down. I struggle with some, I need to be chucked in the shower or bath sometimes. 
Mark- Me too.
Seaneen- But back in the day it was so much more visible and embarrassing. I don’t know. I’m scundered. Scundered is a Northern Irish word for being embarrassed. The feeling of being scundered has never left me so I sort of self-isolate so I don’t scunder myself in front of anybody. 
[Music] Something else that makes me feel lonely and isolated is Mental Health Awareness week. Week – there’s like six of them – weeks.
Mark- There are loads of them. 
Seaneen- There are loads, yeah. I can’t avoid it because I work in mental health comms and that’s the busiest time of the year. Obviously I want to do my job well and stuff, and they are important weeks, but on a personal level I just don’t like them because I struggle. There are so many happy recovery stories and you see people kind of speaking out and getting support and I’m just really jealous. It’s petty but I’m jealous. It’s like where’s my shiny recovery story? And where’s all my people contacting me? And where’s my big circle of people looking after me? Just to add here, because I feel bad, I am married and have a child, two children actually, so I’m not completely alone. But yeah, I just feel a bit jealous. I feel a bit like, well, where’s it for me?
Mark- But there’s a difference there because when you’re telling your story in awareness week it’s very different from being present with someone who’s close to you. I think it’s really easy to commend someone for talking about something difficult when you know they’re never going to be your friend and you’re never going to see them living through the after-effects of that experience. Recovery stories I think a lot of people who experience mental health difficulties find them difficult because they just tie up all of the loose ends and imply that you will have a period of stuff that’s bad and then you’ll just…
Seaneen- Then be fine forever. 
Mark- Yeah, you’ll just be ordering conservatories and having city breaks in spa towns across the country and everything will be great. 
Seaneen- I used to call it the recovery kitchen. You know when those stories are in the press there are often people standing in like a really, really shiny kitchen. 
Mark- You know if you’ve recovered from a mental health difficulty when you have an island in your kitchen. 
Seaneen- And a really classy clay cup. Nothing from Tesco, just this kind of made even by your own hands, and you’re drinking your herbal tea from it looking into the camera. 
Mark- Do you think it’s easy to feel left out during awareness weeks?
Seaneen- Oh my God, yes. There’s a big massive group of people left out of mental health awareness weeks, and it’s people who are living with mental illness, currently going through it, and who aren’t treated well. I understand why they want to have positive stories, but there’s injustice in the system, there’s injustice in the psychiatric system and there’s trauma, and I think those people are really, really neglected in those weeks. 
[Music] This is Mentally Interesting from BBC Ouch with Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy. Our email address is ouch@bbc.co.uk, and you can subscribe to Ouch on BBC Sounds. 
Mark- Loneliness, isolation, finding a place in the world, feeling like you don’t belong – we’ve been talking about all of that already. You’ve heard from me and Seaneen talking about those things. And now we’re going to be talking to our guest, Shuranjeet Singh, who runs an organisation called Taraki that looks at mental health in the Punjabi community. And also Shuranjeet is a very, very, very thoughtful person who will have loads of thoughts about this. So, I’d just like to welcome Shuranjeet to Mentally Interesting. Hello. 
Shuranjeet- Hello, hello. Thank you for having me. 
Seaneen- You know me and Mark are mentally interesting; we’ve got our own mental health stories. So, what makes you mentally interesting? 
Shuranjeet- Born and raised in Handsworth in Birmingham. Lived very close to the main high street, which is an amazing amalgamation of people from all over the world, cultures, communities who I’ve been surrounded by for all of my upbringing. And I guess for me the difficulty came where I was transitioning from home to my undergrad, being the first in my family to leave Birmingham and go to uni, you know, at the best of times I stick out of the crow being a Sikh man with a turban and a beard, right. And I guess at home here you can exist or I felt as though I could exist as myself in a way that felt as though I just kind of blended in, and I didn’t really have to go around explaining myself to people in the way that I did at uni. During my undergrad there was a real sense of needing to explain my being and needing to give a lot of contextual information and needing to justify why I am how I am in a much higher and a much more intense way than I’d experienced during my upbringing.
Seaneen- So, how did that make you feel? Did you suffer from depression or anxiety when you went to university?
Shuranjeet- It made me isolate myself more and more socially. It made me really kind of disconnect from family, from friends, kind of finding social situations increasingly difficult, especially in crowds of more than, say, two or three people. It was all that emmeshed within other kinds of experiences, say related to body image, related to self-confidence.
Seaneen- So, what was different about the support you got to what other people receive?
Shuranjeet- There are two things that stick out in my mind. The first is having access to the types of conversations that were encouraging a reflection around mental health and a reflection around well-being, which was accessible at least for me at that point. That was something that was definitely a privilege for me to have that. And the second thing is being around friends or housemates at uni who were reciprocal of those kinds of discussions, really people who wanted to build a relationship that didn’t just rest on us being housemates.
Mark- It's finding some people who you mean something to and who mean something to you, and finding somewhere where you can be yourself fully seems to be like quite a good description for becoming your true self and finding who you are and where your place is in the world. It feels like this is the superhero origin story for the work that you’ve gone on to do. Tell us the link between this and what you actually do. And also tell us a little bit about what Taraki is and how it links to those kind of formative Tony Stark building his iron suit in a cave kind of birth story.
Shuranjeet- The main thing that really got my thinking going was men’s mental health. Around this time there was a lot of discussion around men’s mental health in the media; but I remember speaking to family, friends and they would say, [Punjabi phrase] which means it’s a white person’s thing. And I didn’t necessarily blame them, in the sense that there was so much happening around men’s mental health but it was your Russell Brands, it was your Stephen Frys, and it wasn’t necessarily folks who were reflective of those I’d grown up around. So, that was the real initial push from my side which started our work at Taraki: it was noticing that there are gaps that aren’t just related to “mistakes” that individuals or shortcomings that they’ve made; but these are gaps that are structural gaps and these are issues with the systems that we have put in place as a society. And therefore they need to be confronted and worked towards rectifying them from a community standpoint.  
Mark- I’m kind of guessing it’s a little bit different from sort of just putting the same old messages and the same old approaches into the mouth and the face of a man with a beard and a turban. I’m guessing that there’s something different that needs to happen. A lot of the messages are, go and play football with your mates or go down the pub and it’ll be great. And this is a guess; I’m guessing this is slightly different from the gaps that you were spotting?
Shuranjeet- Absolutely. But there are going to be some folks it’s still the same. And so for me it wasn’t that we wanted to cover a community in a way that I thought would reflect that community. Really it’s just opening up that space for folks whose voices have been not included in this conversation, for them to come and include their voices. A couple of the particular examples that stick out for me are around say for example the role of faith-based knowledge in mental health, particularly when we’re working with Punjabi communities. Because we could very easily be talking about mindfulness and mediation and stuff…
Mark- All of the stuff you always hear.
Shuranjeet- Yeah, all the stuff we always hear. And what we recognised really quickly was that there was a particular language of having those discussions with Punjabi communities that were actually based in faith-based knowledge. And this very much links into something that I experienced when I went over to my family and spoke to them about mindfulness and meditation, and they looked back at me and they said, “we’ve been doing that with you since you were born”.
Mark- How? How does it differ? Can you give us a bit more of a concrete example of how that sort of stuff that is presented as an amazing middle class saviour’s approach to mental health has actually much more historically locked into Sikh identity and belief? 
Shuranjeet- When folks are talking about mindful breathing, mindful eating, being present in the moment, taking time for yourself, all the kind of self-care related narrative around things like mindfulness and meditation. These are actually things that are very much embedded within the practice, within the Sikh faith. And these were actually things that I used to look at when I was younger, and I used to think why are we doing this, why does it say that we should try and wake up at [Punjabi phrase] which is between 3am and 5am and do [Punjabi phrase] which are particular prayers; why is it that we are encouraged to do quiet reflection; and why is it we’re encouraged to reflect with others when we want to build up our knowledge and build up our confidence through things like [Punjabi] which is essentially a collective self-reflection. 
Mark- Yeah.
Shuranjeet- And it was only when I’d seen these conversations take place in a mindfulness and meditation capacity that they were just regurgitating a lot of the knowledge that we’d been brought up with. But the knowledge was stripped of all of its faith-based values and belief systems.
Mark- One of the things that doesn’t usually go down well with blokes is telling them stuff they think they already know.
Shuranjeet- Absolutely. And the challenge there, especially when it comes to mindfulness and meditation discussions, is you kind of have one chance at that discussion. If it doesn’t go down well you’ve potentially lost your audience because you’re seen as actually talking about something you know nothing about and the audience already knows everything it needs to know about it. That’s how you lose trust in my opinion. 
Seaneen- So, aside from the language, which sounds like it is something alienating because it is something inherent in the faith-based practice, what are the barriers to people from the Sikh community are facing accessing mental health support?
Shuranjeet- One of them is around how particularly this happens a lot with Punjabi elderly women, they will go to a doctor, go to a GP, talk about the challenges they’re experiencing, which they’re often mental health related challenges, but they would describe them in ways that are very physical. So, particular pains in your legs are a very kind of heavy chest or a heavy heart. And often they’ll get scans done, they’ll go for multiple appointments to see if their legs are okay, and nothing will come back. And they’ll be like, actually you’re fine, there’s nothing wrong with you. And often what this means is that these usually say elderly women are really mistreated within that space. At the end of the day they’re not getting the support they need.
Seaneen- So, it’s just a kind of culturally different way of expressing distress really?
Shuranjeet- I would say a culturally different way of expressing distress and something that, for whatever reason, whether it’s related to race, gender, that it’s just very easy for people within the healthcare space to just look over.
Seaneen- So, since you’ve started Taraki what have been some of the biggest achievements and what are you most proud of with your work?
Shuranjeet- I’m very proud that we’ve been able to work in a way that is responsive to the diversity within our communities. So, for example we’ve had ongoing work around Punjabi LGBTQ+ mental health. And the question for me very early on with that is how is someone like myself, who is Punjabi but doesn’t identify as LGBTQ+ how is it that we can actually develop infrastructure that can support these communities in a way that it’s actually led by those communities? And how can we be aware of the diversity within communities we might all automatically just think is one? Because often people will say, oh yeah, it’s just the Punjabi community. And the first thing I say to that is, yeah we might appear to be homogenous, but there is actually so much within Punjabi communities, how do we actually make sure that the folks that we might be including or the folks who we might be unintentionally excluding are going to be a part of the conversation moving forward.
Seaneen- If we want to know more about Taraki how can people find out?
Shuranjeet- They can visit our website, which is www.taraki.co.uk, that’s T-A-R-A-K-I. Have a peruse on there and see what we’ve been up to.
Seaneen- Thank you very much.
Shuranjeet- Thank you both so much.
Mark- [Music] You’re listening to Mentally Interesting from BBC Ouch. If social media is your thing we’re BBC Ouch on Facebook and Twitter. And if you subscribe to Ouch on BBC Sounds you’ll never miss an episode again. 
Seaneen- This last few minutes of the show gets a little grim and there is a mention of suicide, so feel free to stop the show now if it’s not something you want to hear at the moment. Don’t worry, you’re only missing a few minutes. 
Mark- And now, as is traditional, we are going to share with you our wonderful new feature, [sirens and bells] and this episode is: has anyone ever bet on you dying on the internet. So, for anyone who didn’t quite catch the jingle, we’re still a work in progress, the feature is: has anyone ever bet on you dying on the internet. My answer to that is no, but what about you Seaneen?
Seaneen- [Laughter] Yes.
Mark- Oh really?
Seaneen- Someone has bet on me dying on the internet. I always think about it around this time of year because it was a dead pool. They often happen on internet forums, any forum, but a dead pool is when people start the year with a list of people that they expect to die in the year. And the more people you get ticked off your list the closer you are to winning. It’s bloody horrible to be honest. 
Mark- I mean, I thought Fantasy Football was rubbish, but that’s even worse.
Seaneen- It should be sort of more like dead pool bingo because you have to kind of get a full house. So, one year someone had me on their dead pool.
Mark- How did you find out about this?
Seaneen- Someone emailed me with a link. I really could have done without that. I don’t know why they emailed me or thought I would want to know this. And when I checked on it I was the joker card, so the kind of outsider kind of funny. Ha-ha it is so funny to be bet on dying person. So, yeah it was just not nice.
Mark- No, it’s not. I’m really conscious that I don’t want to do the thing of getting someone who’s experienced abuse to think through the motivations of the person who’s abused them, because I don’t really think that’s helpful. But I think for people at home they might be wondering why someone would do such an obviously scum baggy thing. 
Seaneen- I think it was blogging basically, and that was a pretty rough year that, 2009. I’d been kind of publicly talking about struggling with my mental health, and this person thought then, because I was so openly struggling, maybe I will kill myself and they will get money for it. 
Mark- Just how thoughtlessly mercenary is that?
Seaneen- Yeah basically. So, obviously I was like, there’s no chance, I am going to live forever and ever and ever now.
Mark- I am not going to contribute to your profits by leaving this mortal coil.
Seaneen- You’re not getting a tenner out of me.
Mark- I am very glad that that is true, and I’m going to look forward to being with you in the future in the year 2525 still making this podcast, still talking about being lonely. Was it that little amount of money? 
Seaneen- Oh I’m not sure, but I think they pool money together, and then you win if you get certain amount or something. I don’t know how death lists work because I’m not a horrible person who does that kind of thing.
Mark- Thinking back to that time do you reckon in the wider mad-o-sphere of mental health bloggers and commenters and stuff like that, do you think people were worried that you might die that year?
Seaneen- Yeah. It wasn’t a good year, and nor was the year before. People were worried about me. I was in a new relationship at the time but my ex had been worried basically throughout our relationship that I was going to die. It’s a sad thing to think about. I don’t want to worry anybody. But I think it’s just one of those things, when you care about someone who’s got a mental illness it is an omnipresent worry that they might not survive it.
Mark- Yeah. Just to be clear for everyone at home, starting a dead pool is not the best way of conveying your concern to someone. So, how did it feel after that? Because we talk about these things as kind of solitary events, but you had to go on with the rest of that year and the rest of your life knowing that that had happened. Did it leave any lasting icky stuff?
Seaneen- It made me kind of conscious of how I was coming across. And I think I stopped blogging for a bit after that or palled it down, because I never read back things I write; I always just purge things then I don’t really edit. And I suddenly felt quite self-conscious. I felt like maybe I’m coming across in a way that I don’t really want to come across; maybe that I’m sharing too much and it’s not being taken in the way that I would like it to be taken. So, it did sort of give me pause for thought yeah.
Mark- But that’s horrible because that cuts off one of the means of making contact with people, the ability to be open and honest is what connects us with each other. And then some prawn with a death wish for you, not them, comes along and it’s like they’ve pulled down the shutters and upped the drawbridge and then you’re in a bunker again. How did you find your way back from that?
Seaneen- I’m not really sure I ever did. I did wind down blogging quite a bit after that point. But to be fair it was sort of a bit of a wake-up call I guess. I do think in retrospect I shared a bit too much and I made myself quite vulnerable. It was because I was still trying to make sense of everything that was happening to me, and yeah, I was sort of seeking connection with other people. But it wasn’t always done in the healthiest ways I think. So, thanks for betting on me dying; you helped me reflect on just how much I share with the world.  
Mark- Everything’s a learning experience.
Seaneen- Always. 
Mark- And everything you learn is always horrible. [Laughs]
Seaneen- But I’m still alive.
Mark- And I’m glad.
Seaneen- Thank you. 
Mark- [Music] So, that’s been quite an episode, hasn’t it: loneliness and death and being bullied from afar and isolation and ill-advised attempts to meet people.
Seaneen- All the lovely stuff!
Mark- All of the amazing stuff. So, it just leaves us to say, this has been Mentally Interesting. I’m Mark Brown.
Seaneen- And I’m Seaneen Molloy. You can get in touch with us by email at ouch@bbc.co.uk. We’re also on Twitter @bbcouch or you can search for us on Facebook and Instagram by entering BBC Ouch. You’ll find the rest of our episodes on BBC Sounds.
Mark- And please do get in touch with us because, as you may have heard listening to this episode, we’re sometimes a bit lonely. Until next time…
Seaneen- Love us. Bye.
Mark- …bye.