Staying cool in heatwave hell

EMMA- I need to know if you’ve got your shoulders out today. You said in one of the other episodes that you were determined to always have you shoulders out. 

NIKKI- I have got my shoulders out. How did you know, Em?

EMMA- Are they tanned? Are you tanned?

NIKKI- A little. What happens with me is I have little patches of brown if I get too tanned. And often as not one appears on my top lip, like this really massive patch of brown, so it looks like I have a moustache. And then I get another massive patch on my forehead, and people try and rub it off thinking it’s my foundation. So, I can’t go anywhere. 

EMMA- Who rubs your forehead?

NIKKI- Oh people who love me to be honest. Like what have you got on your face? Rub it, rub it, rub it.

EMMA- Do you get that? Because can you rub your own forehead? 

NIKKI- I can if I’m leaning my arms. I have to do a bit of a swing up.

EMMA- My mother will still, and I don’t know if mothers of non-disabled people do this, my mother will still just launch at me and rub my face or my hair or my clothes or whatever there’s something on, without even announcing she’s going to do it. I actually get a fright. And she’s known me all of my life, she knows I can’t see, she knows I get a fright, but she can’t help herself. 

MUSIC- Theme music. 

NIKKI- It’s another Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Nikki Fox and I am in London. 

EMMA- And I’m Emma Tracey in Edinburgh. 

NIKKI- And later...

TIM- He just has a heart the size of a disabled toilet.

NIKKI- That’s from the BBC comedy, Jerk, and we are going to be joined by its writer and star, Tim Renkow. I tell you Emma it’s scorchio down here in London. But I was in Manchester the other day and it wasn’t quite as toasty.

EMMA- Yeah, it’s a balmy 19 here and breezy today. But we are highly, highly unusually due to see 32 next week, which is almost unheard of. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen 32 in the seven years that I’ve lived in Fife in Scotland. 

NIKKI- Holy moly, you're going to have to get your bikini on, Emma.

EMMA- We’ll see. 

NIKKI- But in all seriousness heatwaves can cause serious difficulties for disabled people, can’t they? I mean, I’m no good in the cold, and I love the heat, but actually I do struggle to regulate my temperature. I don’t know the ins and outs of this, Emma, but I was told, or my sister and I were both told when we were younger that we are no good at regulating our temperature and that we don’t sweat. 

EMMA- I have no problem with actually regulating my body temperature at all, but what I can’t do is add some accessories that might help me get through a hot weather day. So, contrary to everything you’ve ever seen or heard about totally blind people, I’m unable to wear dark glasses. And the reason for that is because I can actually see light and dark. I use my light and dark a lot in my navigation, so to see the darkness of objects against the bright of the day. It kind of keeps me a bit straighter and it stops me walking into things. 

NIKKI- But it’s not just physical impairments is it, Emma?

EMMA- No. Two of the most common psychiatric medications, antidepressants and antipsychotics can cause overheating in hot weather. And that’s because they can stop the temperature regulation bit of your brain from working properly. And that can be really dangerous. 

NIKKI- And more generally in England alone there were 2,500 excess deaths in the summer of 2020 as a result of hot weather. And according to the British Red Cross, heat related deaths in the UK could treble in 30 years. 

EMMA- Treble? That is really huge, isn’t it? 

NIKKI- Yeah. 

EMMA- I mean, one of the problems is that heatwaves are becoming more frequent and more extreme because of climate change. And every time we get a burst of hot weather warnings are issued for the elderly and the vulnerable. And that’s us. But what can we do about it?

NIKKI- Let’s talk to some people to give us an idea of how people with different impairments can be affected in the heat. Now, I’d like to welcome Jo Southall. Jo is an occupational therapist who specialises in giving practical advice for managing long-term health conditions. And we’ve got Sabrina Fox. Great last name Sabrina. Sabrina is a volunteer at the MS Society, and you both bring, don’t you, with you personal experience on this subject matter. So, thank you so, so much for joining us. I’m going to go to you, Jo, first. How are you coping in the heat? 

JO- I would quite like to be in the Arctic Circle right now. But I’ve got a lot of strategies in place so we’re doing okay.

NIKKI- And Sabrina, how are you doing? 

SABRINA- I’ve got progressive MS, multiple sclerosis, so my symptoms get worse over time. And I don’t really get a break. When the hot weather comes in it’s very difficult. 

NIKKI- What areas do you struggle with most, Sabrina?

SABRINA- The heat makes the spasms worse. I do get them normally, but they’re more intense when it’s really hot. 

EMMA- Jo, I understand that you have that classic combination of hypermobile Ehlers Danlos syndrome and postural tachycardia. What is that in a nutshell and why is heat an issue?

JO- The root cause of my problems is the hypermobile EDS. And effective my body makes collagen badly, so my ligaments are too stretchy, my digestive system is a bit too stretchy, my skin is weak. Basically any kind of structure in my body is just a little bit off, so I’m not quite as durable as I’m supposed to be. A side effect of that is my autonomic system doesn’t really function particularly well. So, anything in your body that’s supposed to be automatic, so your blood pressure, your heart rate, your digestion, sweating, how often can you pee, that kind of thing, high temperatures for me result in tachycardia, dizziness, high risk of fainting, dehydration. 

NIKKI- Tachycardia is something to do with the heart. Dr Fox here. 

JO- if I’m doing absolutely nothing, laid down still, not talking in a nice cool room, my heart rate is perfectly normal. The minute I start adding things like standing up or talking or being somewhere warm I start to get that increase in heart rate. So, postural changes will cause a massive increase in heart rate for me. 

NIKKI- I think now is probably a good time to bring in Dr Katherine Fletcher, who’s the research communication officer at Parkinson’s UK. Hello Katherine. Thank you for joining us too.

KATHERINE- Thank you for having me. 

NIKKI- We’re talking from the view of people with Parkinson’s, aren’t we? And they have their own heat difficulties. So, can you explain a bit more about that? 

KATHERINE- Those that might not be so familiar with Parkinson’s, it’s a neurological condition that gets worse over time. I think people mostly think about movement symptoms, so tremors, the slowness of movement, but actually I think the symptoms that are less well known are most important when we’re thinking about how heat might impact people with Parkinson’s. And this is that people with Parkinson’s are more prone to struggle with their mental health, so can experience depression and anxiety. I think it's well known that mental health can be impacted in the heat; we’re all more irritable. Tiredness can play a factor, like Sabrina said, struggling to sleep. All kind of amalgamates in making the heat a little bit more worrying for people with Parkinson’s. 

NIKKI- Jo, what are your top tips for coping in this heat? 

JO- I have oh so many. 

NIKKI- Go on, Jo.

JO- One of them I think might actually be quite useful for you. So, it’s something called evaporation cooling. Now, when we sweat the sweat leaving our body as it evaporates uses heat to change from a liquid to air vapour basically; that’s a really simplified version of it. But effectively one of the benefits of sweating is that it cools you down. So, if you don’t sweat you’re not getting that same benefit. The downside of sweating as a cooling method is you don’t just sweat out fluids, you sweat out all those useful electrolytes that help with things like circulation and your nervous system functioning. So, you can end up, and I feel the same way as Sabrina as muscle spasms as an issue, because basically you’re sweating out all your electrolytes.

EMMA- So, what can you do to help you with those issues then? 

JO- The easiest cheat is just to carry a little spray bottle of water and just mist your clothes and your skin and let that evaporate instead. 

NIKKI- No?

JO- Yeah. 

NIKKI- Does that work? 

JO- It does. 

NIKKI- Jo, you're a genius. Emma, that’s what we need to do. That’s a brilliant tip. 

EMMA- I tell you what though, I think the spray bottle is good, but I have heard from people over the years about a cooling vest. And I’m not sure how fashionable this is or what it looks like but I kind of want one for next week. Could you tell us a bit more about cooling vests, Jo?

JO- I absolutely can. I do have one. So, what we’re talking about…

EMMA- Is it sexy?

JO- No, not. 

NIKKI- Is it boobie enhancing? 

JO- No, it doesn’t do anything good for the figure. 

NIKKI- I’m out. 

JO- It kind of looks like body armour, like the stab vest style things. And it’s basically just a sleeve for cool packs front and back. And they have phase change material cool packs in them. So, were not talking icepacks. Phase change material gets down to sort of 14 to 16 degrees and you just keep that against your core so it keeps you cool but not cold.

EMMA- Is it like gel stuff in them?

JO- It’s sort of like a liquid at room temperature, so you pop it into the fridge and it turns into a solid, and then it will gradually turn back into a liquid using your body heat. 

EMMA- And then do you have to put clothes on top of it or…?

NIKKI- No, Emma, you just go round in it.

EMMA- I’m just asking. It’s very hot. If you put on another layer quite thick…

NIKKI- Sexy.

EMMA- …and then something else on top of it, does it not negate the progress you’re making by wearing a cooling vest in the first place? I’m just trying to understand because I might be on to the old big shop in the internet.

JO- Yeah, it is cold, cold, so you can wear it over your regular clothing so that you can just take it off when you don’t need it anymore, and you don’t suddenly find yourself undressed in the middle of Sainsbury’s. It’s basically just something that you would wear against whatever normal clothing you’re wearing. 

NIKKI- Jo, it brings a whole new meaning to freezing your tits off, doesn’t it? And Sabrina, have you got any top tips?

SABRINA- My top tip would be to pace yourself, so make sure you’re leaving enough time to do everything. Don’t rush yourself. And also if you need to speak to someone about maybe changing the plans just do it in an approachable way and hopefully they’ll be understanding. 

NIKKI- Just very quickly guys, because we’re not used to this much hot weather in the UK, and when we do it’s like what is going on. But one of the reasons why it feels harder to cope with than if you’re, say, on a holiday by the pool or whatever is because our buildings and our infrastructure are not necessarily built for that level of heat. I just wonder what can we do about that, Katherine?

KATHERINE- I think there are lots of things that can be done. We mentioned earlier in the programme about climate change and it becoming a more regular thing. Heatwaves are here to stay potentially. I think it’s about working to make calls to the government with people with health conditions and disabilities in mind to adapt that infrastructure. And that comes down to things like making sure people are financially able to buy fans and aircon units. We all have lived in houses and flats that are just unbearable in the heat. And affordable and accessible public transport. People still need to be encouraged to get out and about, and I think making sure public transport is adapted to and has aircon and is comfortable during the heatwave is really important, not just for people with Parkinson’s but everyone. 

NIKKI- That’s true.

KATHERINE- They would be my top two.

NIKKI- Thank you all so much. Obviously thank you Katherine, thank you Jo, thank you Sabrina. That was really fascinating. I’ve learnt a lot there. I’m going to get a spray bottle and I’m going to spray myself down. That was a great tip there. keep cool. 

KATHERINE- You too. 

NIKKI- Bye guys. Now, remember to keep cool, and also check in on your friends and family who you think might be struggling with this heat. And also send us your top tips for keeping cool, and we will tweet the best out. Our Twitter is @bbcaccessall, or you can send us an email to accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or, one of my favourite methods, a voice note on WhatsApp, a voice note or a message. The number is 0330 123 9480. And if you could start your message with the word Access that would really help us out. 

FIONA- We’d like to interrupt this professional broadcast with a little bit of amateur styley, wouldn’t we, Lady Jane Garvey?

JANE- Yes, we would, Dame Fiona Glover. We would like to urge people to listen to the BBC podcast, Access All, with Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey. Which is – well actually, how would you sum it up? Because it’s about a range of issues which actually almost everyone will find something of interest embedded within it, won’t they?

FIONA- They will. And it is a big remit. It’s much larger than ours. 

JANE- Huge, and ours is enormous. 

FIONA- It is. But I’ve been enjoying every episode that I’ve listened to so far and I couldn’t recommend it highly enough. 

JANE- It’s very well presented by two informed witty women. God, we could learn something actually.

FIONA- Honestly, it’s brilliant. 

NIKKI- Oh Emma, it takes me right back. I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed chatting to Fi Glover and Jane Garvey there on their brilliant, very long-running BBC podcast, Fortunately, which like our one is on BBC Sounds. 

EMMA- So, you were on their podcast last week?

NIKKI- I was. I was on talking about all sorts of things. I spoke about my family, I talked about my sister. 

EMMA- So, as a little teaser of that episode we’re going to play a clip of it now. And you’d just been talking about your sister, as you say, and the fact that you’ve got the same disability. The name of which you’re just about to reveal to everyone. 

NIKKI- Mild congenital muscular dystrophy non-progressive is how they described it when we were younger. And mum was having to regularly take us to Hammersmith Hospital three times a week. We used to have to have tests. I used to have muscle biopsies, because Rachel never wanted them because they were quite painful, so I used to get a little bit of money. 

FIONA- They sound it, but what do they do to get it? 

NIKKI- They just take a bit of your muscle and take it off and test it. I’ve still got the little scars. 

FIONA- Ew. 

NIKKI- I know. It wasn’t pleasant. 

FIONA- I’m sure it wasn’t. 

NIKKI- I am quite hardcore now. You can do anything to me, I’m all right, probably because of those. But yeah, we used to have little muscle biopsies; they’d take them away for testing. And it got to the point where you get to sort of 16 and you’re like, I want a career, I want to think about work. I was playing the piano at the time and I set up my own little piano teaching business, and I wanted to get out there and do things. And you can’t do the two; you cannot be going to hospital three times a week for people to test on you and for you to walk up and down the corridor in your little vest and your pants for a load of doctors to look at the way you’re walking and your gait and all of this, and do the same exercise, breathe into a tube. It was always the same kind of thing. And you can’t do that and then actually live a life. So, you kind of stop around 16, 17, and then you’ve still got the same diagnosis. But as it transpires there are lots of different kinds of muscular dystrophy, and even now at 42 I don’t know what that is. 

EMMA- For more Nikki Fox subscribe to this podcast, Access All, on BBC Sounds. 

NIKKI- We are cross-podcast promoting here. 

EMMA- Yeah. And tell your friends as well. Very, very important. Back to the interview again, you spoke really openly about that bit of your childhood with muscular dystrophy that I think a lot of us sort of keep to ourselves a bit, because it’s a bit weird – sorry, I hope you don’t mind me saying it’s a bit weird. 

NIKKI- No.

EMMA- But it’s not like what other kids have to go through. I mean, I didn’t really have much hospital because I’m just blind, I just came out blind. I like to say a freak of nature. I’m not sure that’s the right way of putting it. 

NIKKI- No, Emma, that’s not.

EMMA- But mine was first to see if there was a cure, and second to see if I’d pass it on, and that was all. So, it’s not something I’m not that used to. But tell me a bit more about those three times a week. That’s a lot! What were they trying to achieve?

NIKKI- I remember we had that test actually. I didn’t say that in the Fortunately podcast. But you’ve just reminded me we had that test at quite a young age to find out whether or not if we had children whether they would also have muscular dystrophy. which I thought was a bit random so young. I was like, that’s the last thing on my mind. 

EMMA- But I think my parents also wanted to know that if they had another child as well.

NIKKI- Yeah, that’s true. That happened to my mum. I think my mum was told when I popped out that if she were to have a second child they wouldn’t have muscular dystrophy. And then Rachel popped out and ta-dah, she had muscular dystrophy, so yeah. But going back to your question, Emma, they were around three times a week. It was my mum I felt for. I think she parked outside Wormwood Scrubs. And it was always early in the morning, my mum said. And my mum is very glamourous; she’s always full make-up, hair, heels, full-on. 

EMMA- Did she have to get up early or something? 

NIKKI- Yeah, regardless of the time she was going to look glam, that’s just my mum. So, off she went with two babies, parked outside Wormwood Scrubs, totted to Hammersmith in her heels probably looking fabulous, with the double buggy. This went on for years. Always I remember walking, because I do remember walking up and down the corridor, because it really tired us out. And we always had to do it in our vest and pants. I remember feeling a little insecure back then walking up and down the corridor in my bra and pants. 

EMMA- Funny that. 

NIKKI- Yeah a bit funny. Funny yeah.

EMMA- Do you think they kind of realised the impact it was having on your little child’s lives, and what they were trying to achieve relative to that? 

NIKKI- In the hospital’s defence, Emma, we were under a guy called Professor Dubowitz, who was the sort of don when it came to muscular dystrophy, and I’m pretty sure we’re probably in one of his books. But you see there is still not a great deal known. You see, I’m not an expert. You can tell that I’ve not been to the hospital for a very long time, so I’m sort of hesitant to say. But at the time they knew we had muscular dystrophy, and it was congenital muscular dystrophy, non-progressive. But there are different types of that, like I was saying to Fi and Jane, there’s a…

EMMA- So, they were trying to figure out? They were trying to join the dots for them? 

NIKKI- That’s right, they were trying to join the dots. And they were doing that by looking at the way we walked. Because some people end up in wheelchairs quite early on, so they said to my mum we’ll probably end up in wheelchairs quite early on. We didn’t. Rachel and I managed to walk till about 25. I say walk, you know, I’ve told you this before, it wasn’t glamourous, but we did.

EMMA- And do you resent that now? 

NIKKI- No, I don’t, I don’t resent it at all. I’m sad for my mum that she had to spend a lot of time doing that. And I know that it was stressful. 

EMMA- Was she made do it or did she just feel she should do it?

NIKKI- No, I think she was asked and probably thought she had to I would imagine. I’ll ask her tonight. If my mum thought she could get out of it, but I guess she would want to know what’s going on with her daughters, so for my mum it probably was a no-brainer. She probably thought, well this could find us some answers. Do you know I remember once, Emma, I was told, we were all sent into a meeting with somebody that wasn’t Professor Dubowitz or any of the others that we’d sort of come to know, someone new, and they said to my mum and dad and me and my sister that when you get to 21 there will be a cure. 

EMMA- Oh.

NIKKI- Yeah. And I remember it so vividly because I went round all my school mates, I was like when I’m 21 I’m going to be cured. 

EMMA- It’s a good birthday present I suppose, if that’s what you want, isn’t it?

NIKKI- Congratulations. But it never happened obviously. 

EMMA- You said you stopped when life started to get busy when you were 15, 16. I’m imagining teenage shouting matches in the house saying, ‘I am not going anymore!’. Or was it just a kind of coproduction between you all and said, we’re not doing this anymore? 

NIKKI- Yeah, it sort of petered off for two reasons really. And I’m talking about my own personal experience when I say this. For me it felt like the medical professionals weren’t as concerned about seeing us the older we got. 

EMMA- Oh, as in they’d done what they…

NIKKI- They had to do, yeah. It very much felt like that. 

EMMA- So, a teenager and adults aren’t as interesting as disabled kids? 

NIKKI- No, they’re not. 

EMMA- Because they’re not changing and growing as quickly and developing as quickly.

NIKKI- Yeah, they’re not really arsed about the adult Fox.

EMMA- So, they ditched you. Did they start ghosting you then? 

NIKKI- We were kind of ghosting. It was like the worst Tinder date ever. You know when you both know that it’s not going to plan and you’re trying to get out of it?

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- It was a bit like that with hospitals. They weren’t that interested; we wanted to live. I was going to school, like I said, I had a good social life, I was getting there. I had my ups and downs but it was going all right. I wanted to work, I really did, and I wanted to go to uni. 

EMMA- And you couldn’t really do that with your three times a week hospital habit?

NIKKI- No. who can?

EMMA- No. 

NIKKI- But even now I’m sure I’m not the only disabled person that would say how difficult it is to mix working and getting all those regular hospital appointments that you need. I just don’t do them. 

EMMA- Do you not?

NIKKI- Not really.

EMMA- So, you don’t do them? 

NIKKI- No. I do the really important ones like the smears and all the things that we absolutely have to do. I’m probably not as good at going to see my ankle splint guy, which is why I get ulcers. Luke his name is, and he’s brilliant as well. But you have to go and see him, you then have to wait six weeks for these splints, you have to go back; you don’t have a time. I left a mark on my leg for a very long time and then went a bit bad. So, yeah I’m naughty, I’m naughty. And I’m trying at 42 now to balance it a lot better than I have done in the past and be a bit stricter. But you have to say no to certain things for whatever reason in this job and you don’t want to add, you feel like you don’t want to add, oh and by the way I’ve got to see my splint man on Monday. But here where I am now at the BBC I’m lucky, everyone’s very understanding. But another area of life, work it might not be the same. 

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox. 

ROB- I’ll be straight with you, Tim, the only bit of disability that I care about is ability. I think we’re all very different, aren’t we, and different in different ways. I for example suffer from anosmia which means I have a very limited sense of smell. 

TIM- Oh, that’s really not a disability. 

ACTOR- Thank you Tim, that means a lot. 

NIKKI- Tim. 

TIM- Hello.

NIKKI- Hello. How are you? 

TIM- Good. How are you? 

NIKKI- I’m all right. Thank you so much for coming in the studio. 

TIM- Thanks for having me. 

NIKKI- Can you hear Emma there, Tim?

TIM- Yes. 

EMMA- Hi Tim. How are you? 

TIM- Hi Emma. How are you? 

EMMA- It’s nice to see you, well not see you, hear you, be with you, and not with you, in another place. Anyway lovely to have you. 

NIKKI- She’s in Edinburgh. 

TIM- Ooh.

NIKKI- I know. 

EMMA- Are you going to come up this year, Tim?

TIM- No.

EMMA- No. Why?

TIM- It’s so expensive, it’s so expensive this year. 

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- Okay, well someone who has made a very respectable living from showing disabled people can be just as much of a jerk as the next person is today’s guest, I’m with actor, writer, stand-up comedian and all round legend Tim Renkow.

TIM- Hello.

NIKKI- Hello Tim. How are you? 

EMMA- Hello.

TIM- Good, how are you doing? 

NIKKI- We’re a bit excited about this, aren’t we, Emma?

EMMA- Oh I just love Tim.

NIKKI- I know. 

EMMA- He just says it like it is, doesn’t he? 

NIKKI- But you were doing a comedy show last night. Are you hanging? Are you hungover? 

TIM- No. I was a good boy and I didn’t drink. I’m just too old now. 

NIKKI- How old are you? Bit of an impolite question that. 

TIM- It is impolite, but more embarrassing because I don’t know. I was born in 1989 so.

NIKKI- Oh okay.

EMMA- Oh, you’re a baby! Just a baby.

TIM- 33 here but I’m dead inside, so. 

EMMA- And is doing the comedy with the cerebral palsy getting harder as you get older?

TIM- Yes. 

EMMA- Tell me why it’s getting harder. What’s harder about it? 

TIM- Just as you get older you just have less patience for drunk people, that’s the main thing. 

NIKKI- Obviously we know you’re an excellent stand-up comedian. But also you’re probably best known no, aren’t you, for Jerk?

TIM- Yeah. 

NIKKI- How did you come up with the idea? 

TIM- My friend’s a producer and he had a job interview where he needed to mock up a fake treatment, so he did one about me. And then he did not get the job. But he was like, “You know this is good, should we actually work on it?”. And I said, “Yeah why not?”. And then we did it and he went, “Okay I’m going to take it to the BBC”. And I went, “Yeah why not?”. And then the BBC goes, “Okay we’ll do a pilot”. And I went, “Yeah why not?”. It’s just a list of me saying why not to people.

NIKKI- And in your sitcom, it’s right to say that you are a bit of an asshole.

TIM- Yeah.

NIKKI- What did you want to achieve from that, Tim?

TIM- Well, I wanted to be an asshole. I just wanted to be funny. The show is just an extension of my stand-up category so it was natural. 

NIKKI- A natural progression. 

TIM- Uh-huh. As you can tell by how I got the job I don’t put a lot of thought into doing things. 

NIKKI- There’s no kind of grand plan?

TIM- There’s no grand plan. 

EMMA- You’re such a role model Tim, such a role model. 

NIKKI- I wish I was that free and easy.

TIM- I base my life on the Joker from the Dark Knight. 

NIKKI- I haven’t been able to watch that; it looked too dark. 

TIM- I haven’t seen the new one, but the Heath Ledger one. 

NIKKI- Okay. Well, we’ve got a little clip here of you being a jerk. 

ACTRESS- This Tim is oppressed as a member of the disabled community. 

TIM- I’m not disabled. 

ACTRESS- Oh.

TIM- Yeah, I took the decision to identify as able-bodied. 

ACTRESS- Uh, oh, oh my god, I mean that, that is… And I assumed traditional body norms, and mis-abled you. Oh my god, I need re-educating. 

ACTOR- No, you don’t. Tim’s actually only just mentioned this. 

ACTRESS- It is not Tim’s job to teach; it is our job to learn. I am so sorry, Tim. I mean, is there anything I can do to make reparations? 

TIM- You could get us coke. 

ACTRESS- Cocaine?

NIKKI- It’s so good because we need to shine a light on the ridiculousness.

TIM- Yeah.

NIKKI- Oh it’s just brilliant, Tim. I love that. I watched that last night. 

TIM- Thank you. 

NIKKI- I mean, that was you kind of being tongue in cheek, but with labelling where do you stand on all of that disabled, non-disabled, able-bodied? Do you get hung up on that kind of thing? I’m guessing not.  

TIM- No, I just ignore it. The labelling thing is weird. I just don’t care. I think the ultimate goal for everyone, no matter what your political stance, is to move beyond labelling one way or another. I feel like if everyone’s trying to move on from it why not just move on now and just ignore it? I don’t care. Just do what you want to do, it’s fine. 

NIKKI- You also touch on the things that you can get away with being disabled. 

TIM- Yeah. 

NIKKI- I loved that. Because I remember once I worked for a major supermarket, I was a checkout chick for quite a few years. 

TIM- Ooh. 

NIKKI- I know. I didn’t like the uniform, and I used to walk a bit in that time, but badly, like I wobbled around. And they said to me one day, I just turned up in jeans, and they were like, why are you not wearing your uniform?” I was like, “I’m too disabled to wear the trousers” and they just went, “Yeah fine”. And I wore jeans ever since. It’s brilliant. 

TIM- It’s good. Like everyone should wear jeans. 

NIKKI- Exactly, it’s dress-down Friday. 

TIM- Who cares?

NIKKI- Have you ever done any naughty things your character does? 

TIM- I mean, I am a dick. I will be a dick. I will have label me a dick, amuse people. I would do stuff like when I was a teenager and I was walking I would walk by somebody and then just fall down and go, “What the [beep] did you do that for?”. 

NIKKI- I used to do that to get out of work. Then they started sending me to the hospital and I was like, this isn’t going to work. 

TIM- I know. It’s a good move though. 

NIKKI- I know, thank you. 

EMMA- Very predictably for Emma, can I ask about the mum, your mum in Jerk? 

NIKKI- Oh, she’s brilliant. 

MUM- Stop being an asshole and get up!

EMMA- She is the best. But the clip from the episode that you just heard, at the end of it you said, “You could get us some coke, cocaine” and the whole rest of the episode is about sourcing that and do you really want it. But the thing I loved was your mum was trying to tell you, or trying to tell Tim in Jerk, not you, that you wouldn’t be able to ingest it in the usual way. And she actually found a solution for how you would do that. 

TIM- Yeah, yeah. 

EMMA- And I just think that is such a disabled person mother thing to do. 

TIM- Yeah.

EMMA- Not in the cocaine way, I mean Una Tracey wouldn’t be telling me how to do that. 

NIKKI- Not that we recommend coke, guys. 

EMMA- No, not by any stretch. But the idea that writing a piece where your mum is finding solutions around really subjects that you would never expect your mother to find a solution for. Is that something that happens to you? Where did that come from? 

TIM- No, that was just, well Lorraine is great with improv. What we do with her is give her the scenario and then go, okay do something with it, say what you would say. That’s kind of all her. We  needed her to go at Idris so I wrote the line, ‘Maybe you wake up with no knees’ and she was, “I don’t want to do it, it’s a bit harsh”. And we went, “Okay, do what you do”. And she went, “Okay, I’m going to cut off your legs and shove them down your throat”. Jesus Christ, that’s so much harsher!

NIKKI- That’s so much worse!

TIM- Yeah.

EMMA- Tim, why do you think Tim in Jerk gets away with all the things that he gets away with? Is it a cerebral palsy voice? Where is it coming from? 

TIM- I want to think it’s because I’m adorable. 

ACTOR- I’m just going to say this: do you, do you have special needs, you know, like for the workstation? Do you need an ergonomically adjustable chair?

TIM- Yeah, leather. 

ACTOR- Leather? Okay. 

TIM- Salmon leather. 

ACTOR- Salmon leather. 

TIM- And a bigger desk. Bigger than hers. 

ACTOR- I see. 

TIM- And a guide dog. 

ACTOR- Okay. 

TIM- And new shoes. 

ACTOR- Oh shoes, all right. 

TIM- Your shoes.

ACTOR- My shoes?

TIM- But not those shoes. 

ACTOR- Okay. 

EMMA- Tim pulls back just enough to make people want to help him. 

TIM- Yeah. 

EMMA- But it feels it is all master plan and strategic, but I think he still wants to be loved, does he?

TIM- Yeah. I think the key to Tim, why he’s likeable, is he’s never trying to get anything out of it so it’s no sinister. Or if he is trying to get something out of it it fails. I don’t think he ever achieves any goals he sets out. And I think that helps you get more likeable. But no one wants to root for somebody that’s a douchebag and winning. 

NIKKI- Yeah. 

TIM- You either win or you’re a douche. 

EMMA- Is there another series? 

TIM- We’re working on it right now. 

NIKKI- Yes.

EMMA- Yay!

NIKKI- You live in the UK now, don’t you? 

TIM- Yes. 

NIKKI- Do you like that? 

TIM- South.

NIKKI- Do you miss home? 

TIM- No. I’ve lived here for 11 years. 

NIKKI- And you’re married.

TIM- Married. 

EMMA- Oh, congratulations. 

NIKKI- Married to another fellow comedian. 

TIM- Yeah. 

NIKKI- Exciting. 

TIM- So, we got to perform together last night which was great. 

NIKKI- Nice. 

TIM- We’re both disabled so we never get to be on the same bill. 

EMMA- Why, are you only allowed one disabled person? 

TIM- It’s only one at a time. 

NIKKI- One rule, Em, one rule: one in, one out. 

TIM- Yeah. 

NIKKI- Ah Tim, thank you so much for joining us today. 

TIM- Thank you. 

NIKKI- And from one disabled jerk to another, it’s been a pleasure. 

TIM- Thank you. 

NIKKI- It’s been such a pleasure. Now, you can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, and tell your friends. 

EMMA- Tell everybody, everybody you know, everybody you don’t know. 

NIKKI- Yeah, and get them to subscribe, which is exactly what Keiligh, who works on the show did, when she went on her first date. Oh yeah, she got her first date to subscribe to the podcast. I think that’s good going. And I’ve told her to date more, like speed date. 

EMMA- Oh, above and beyond, Keiligh, but yeah, get the dating apps out. 

NIKKI- Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week. Bye. 

EMMA- Bye.