The summer catch-up

NIKKI- Right Ems, we start the show, don’t we, we have a nice little chat. We just see it as a chat, don’t we?  

EMMA- We do. We sort of forget that the microphone’s on. One of the ones I did with Martin you can hear me putting my headphones on; I’d just come back from the loo. It’s one of those half on, half off, are we live, are we not, are we recording, are we not. 

NIKKI- I’m often adjusting my hair. Libby’s coming in to make sure I don’t look like There’s Something About Mary. It’s all going on. And I find out about life, if someone like you is blind, and you’ve got kids and a family and you teach me things all the time, Emma. And hopefully you find out things about me, because I do go on a bit. 

EMMA- Oh, I love to find out things about you. I find out about your dog, Buddy. About that you can’t wipe your own forehead, stuff like that. 

NIKKI- I mean, I try. Like I said, if I do the swing, the swing. I didn’t elaborate on that. My boyfriend calls it the ball cruncher because I often swing…

EMMA- It’s just at that level?

NIKKI- Yeah, yeah, it gets at that level. And I’m like flinging my arm up. No, but we do. A lot of people have said to me that through our ramblings they are learning bits and bobs about disability and subjects that they wouldn’t have normally kind of thought about, so maybe we should carry on a bit. But do you reckon this is a good time to show the best bits of me and you having a chat? 

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- Roll it, run it, do it. 

MUSIC- Theme music. 

NIKKI- Welcome to Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London. 

EMMA- And I’m Emma Tracey in Edinburgh. 

NIKKI- Hey Emma, we’ve been podcasting Access All since April. And this is our mid-summer catch up with all of our favourite bits. 

EMMA- Subscribe to Access All on BBC Sounds and tell your friends and your colleagues about us. 

NIKKI- One thing we love doing on this programme is telling stories that disabled people know about but the rest of the world doesn’t. A few months ago we looked at a really big problem that even I wasn’t aware of: blind and visually impaired people falling off the edge of train platforms and onto the rails. It shocked me. A lot of people I know that weren’t familiar with it, it shocked them too. It was sparked by the story of Cleveland Gervais who sadly died at a Southeast London train station after he fell from the platform. The station in question didn’t have tactile paving. Tactile edging is basically bobbly paving at the edge of platforms that blind people can detect under their feet, which acts as a kind of warning to a dangerous drop that might be very nearby. An inquest found a lack of these tactile paving strips contributed to the death of Cleveland Gervais when he was hit by a train. 

EMMA- We spoke to Artur after the inquiry. He’s a blind software engineer. He told us about a similar fall that he and his guide dog had ten years ago. 

ARTUR- I was on my way to work and my guide dog was guiding me along the platform and I didn’t realise how close I was to the edge because there was no tactile paving on the edge. And I slipped from the edge, fell down into the track, and while falling down I pulled my guide dog who was walking left of me. The platform edge was on the right, and I pulled him over. The dog got hurt, bruised on his nose and his hip. I was lucky, I only hit my legs against the platform wall. But it was quite dramatic. But at the same time I was quite lucky as well because people started to scream. The station staff managed to switch off the electricity, because I was scared that the dog would be electrified by the live wire. It was as well in Southeastern, on New Eltham station, so very close to where Cleveland eight years after my incident died.

NIKKI- Your dog was screaming and people were shouting. What was going through your head?

ARTUR- It could have gone the other way around as well, like it happened to Cleveland. That was my first thought when I was reading about Cleveland. But the public was very helpful. After the electricity was switched off someone helped me from the public to get out. Someone helped the dog out. I went with the dog to the vet. I had to get immediately treatment. He was off duty several weeks because of the bruises he got at that time.

NIKKI- What were your thoughts actually, Artur, when you heard Cleveland’s story eight years later?

ARTUR- I was reading about it, and I was reading as well the report about his accident and I was wondering how Southeastern could say that they weren’t aware of this kind of situation. Because if the reporting would have been right at that time when I fell into the track they should have this information in their system.

EMMA- I spoke to Southeastern about this actually and the report on Artur’s incident wasn’t passed on to the RAIB because not all reports are, and it wasn’t in the same category. But also it said that the guide dog had run off the platform. And it actually didn’t mention a lack of tactile paving in the report at all. So,  Southeastern also passed on their condolences to Cleveland’s family.

NIKKI- Do you find that frustrating, Artur?

ARTUR- I think the interesting part for me is like we have clear guidance on this kind of tactile paving for a long time now, like 25 years. The reports are being done without talking to the actual people who actually fell into the track. And the reports are being done in a way that it’s not highlighted that the lack of compliance with these kind of very basic structures are causing a health and safety issue. They are not taking the health and safety of disabled people seriously.

NIKKI- I’m sorry we’re talking about such an incident the first time I’ve met you, but I’m hoping we’ll speak again. But thank you so much for coming on and telling your story. We do really appreciate it. Emma, you’ve also been talking to other blind people who have had accidents at railway platforms like Artur, haven’t you?

EMMA- I have. Almost every blind person that I’ve spoken to about this in the last few days has had some sort of train platform related accident. It can happen in any situation, any type of train. Like tram: we know Gary Thompson, who was a blind man and he died when he fell of a tram platform. Underground: we know that Chris McCarrol in Glasgow was very seriously injured when he fell, was hit by a train in the underground in Glasgow. We know that it happens everywhere. We know that tactile paving isn’t the answer to everything; basically all over the country and in the world we need like the new Elizabeth Line in London where they have a wall that just flows back when the train arrives and the doors open so that there’s a wall between you and the train right until the doors appear, and there’s level access and everything. That’s probably going to be the safest way. But tactile paving is probably the next one back.

NIKKI- Yeah.

EMMA- So, I’ve spoken to lots of blind people about this, including BBC’s Washington correspondent, the lovely Gary O’Donoghue.

GARY- In fact in my case I’ve fallen off three train platforms. But actually the worst time it happened to me was on the underground in London. And it was one of the Clapham stations, I can’t remember which one it is, but one of them is an island platform and I didn’t know this. And late at night when I was heading down there about nine o’clock in the evening to do an interview and I got off the tube, walked a few steps forward to find the wall, and fell straight off the platform on the other side. When I realised where I was sort of down there on the tracks I had a brief moment worrying where the live rail was, and then I worried about trains coming, so I managed to scramble back up. And someone then came along and said would I like them to go and get my bag for me, so they hopped down and got my bag up for me, and I went on my way. 

I have to say I’m much more careful and worried about train platforms nowadays, particularly where there are no markings and you don’t know really where you are. You walk along it as if it’s like a tightrope, it feels like a tightrope, and you kind of feel like your next step could be that step into oblivion.   

MUSIC- Access All.

EMMA- In June, Nikki, you popped off on your holibobs for a couple of weeks, didn’t you?

NIKKI- I did. I was having a lovely time in Portugal sunning myself. 

EMMA- Martin Dougan stepped into your shoes for a couple of weeks. 

NIKKI- I know. 

EMMA- And he is a disabled presenter who was on the 2012 Paralympics and then has been on Newsround, the BBC’s kids’ news show for many years. 

NIKKI- And he did a brilliant job, because I did listen to you guys while I was sunning myself. He was brilliant. You two were great together actually.

EMMA- Ah, thank you for that. 

NIKKI- I got a little bit jealous to be honest. I was like, she’s my Emma. 

EMMA- Ah. Well, here’s something we never included at the time. It’s about jobs that Martin had that you might not have expected a wheelchair user with cerebral palsy to have. And it ends in quite an unexpected way as well. 

Being a student and disabled can be a tricky business in terms of accessibility and stuff like that. 

MARTIN- Actually I wouldn’t know. I was never a uni student or a college student. 

EMMA- You were never a student? 

MARTIN- No. 

EMMA- So, how did you get into this game? 

MARTIN- I snuck in through the back door. 

EMMA- You did not sneak in.

MARTIN- I did, I snuck in through the back door. 

EMMA- Commentating on 2012 Paralympics that’s not really sneaking in the back door, is it? 

MARTIN- I’m living my student days right now, for anybody that wants to know. 

EMMA- Oh really? 

MARTIN- Yeah. 

EMMA- Acting like a student. 

MARTIN- If I can find anywhere that does a pound a drink I’m in. 

EMMA- And did you do any other jobs before bursting onto our screens in 2012?

MARTIN- Yeah, I was a barman. 

EMMA- You were a barman?

MARTIN- Yeah, I was a barman. 

EMMA- You’re a wheelchair user with cerebral palsy. How did that go?

MARTIN- My friend worked in a little bar in Glasgow, and I didn’t have a job and he said, ‘do you want to work?’. And he made me like a little stool that had wheels on it, so I would just roll myself around the inside of the bar serving people drinks. And then I was a carpenter for a little while. Well, obviously I played wheelchair basketball for a bit. But I’m talking about the jobs that are more interesting, like a carpenter assembler. I used to build kitchens. 

EMMA- Did you?

MARTIN- Yeah.

EMMA- And was that accessible?

MARTIN- Yeah it was actually, because 50% of the workforce were disabled. It was a place called Blindcraft, and it started off actually for blind people. 

EMMA- Clue’s in the name. 

MARTIN- Yeah, Blindcraft. But it’s called RSBI now. It’s basically sort of part independent funded and a part council funded place where 50% of the disabled workforce, they build kitchens, makes nests of tables, build sofas, like lots of different stuff. And it’s evolved since its early days when it was just blind people to make fabrics. 

EMMA- Were you a good carpenter?

MARTIN- As far as a good disabled carpenter can go I think that I held my own in that place, because you know you’re competing against people that can’t see, people that can’t hear, people with a whole range of different disabilities, even through to sensory disabilities as well. So, you can’t really compare yourself to anybody. 

EMMA- Fair enough. 

MARTIN- But I could build a decent chair and it wouldn’t break. 

EMMA- Great. 

MARTIN- So, I suppose that’s a good sign. 

EMMA- I’m still sort of stuck on the barman thing. I mean, I’ve been at very busy bars where it’s like racing about, jumping up and down for shelves, throwing things into washers. It seems like quite a busy job. 

MARTIN- Yeah. 

EMMA- Was it hard work and how long did you do it for?

MARTIN- I didn’t do it for long for that very reason. You’ve identified basically the reasons why it’s difficult for someone with a disability to work behind a bar because there are always jobs to do, like cleaning the glasses and cleaning the bar, cleaning the tables, picking up glasses. And then you’ve got your job where people want you to actually pour them the drinks as well. God. But it was really good actually. It lasted about six months. I mean, it did get busy. In all fairness it was pretty difficult when Scotland were playing football or any international games then the pubs would be packed and I would struggle. But looking back it was one of my favourite jobs. 

EMMA- What’s your signature cocktail? 

MARTIN- My signature cocktail, I’m not really good at making cocktails, but I can pour a pint. 

EMMA- It wasn’t that kind of pub?

MARTIN- No. it was just, ‘can I get a wee dram?’. They used to say in Glasgow, ‘can I get a wee hoff and a hoff’ which was like a half pint and then just like a shot of whiskey or something like that. We call it a hoff and a hoff. Basically they would pay about £2.75 for both. They were sat there with the Racing Post watching the horses go by and just having a wee hoff and hoff. And wee Michael would get a taxi sent to him at 4 o’clock in the afternoon, you know, that type of bar. It was great. 

EMMA- That’s proper Glasgow life. I feel very sheltered now to be honest. 

MARTIN- No way, no way. Honestly I big it up a little bit. It wasn’t that glamourous, but it was fun. 

EMMA- That’s the main thing. 

MARTIN- If you want to know more about this Access All’s Beth Rose has written a piece for the BBC News website bbc.co.uk/news, where you can hear even more about these figures. And Lucy and Connor’s experiences. 

EMMA- What was that noise? 

MARTIN- Emma, I can’t burp to save my life. 

EMMA- You can’t burp? 

MARTIN- Ever since, you know when you’re younger and you go, listen to this, and your mates do that kind of burping sound?

EMMA- Yeah.

MARTIN- I can’t do it. So, what happens is that my body produces inward burps internally. So, I’ll be sitting and talking to somebody and then all of a sudden you’ll just hear [gurgling noise] and it’s me making some like burping guttural sound. It’s disgusting. I’m really sorry. 

EMMA- Is it a disability thing? 

MARTIN- I think. Well, I’m just going to put it in that category definitely. I don’t think it is. I’ve met a few people that say the same thing. I’m assuming it comes through sound. I feel bad for our sound guy because he’s probably been sitting there thinking, what is that noise that’s coming out of him. 

EMMA- And he can’t ask because he’s worried he’ll be offending you because you’re disabled. 

MARTIN- Yeah!

EMMA- So, if you’ve got cerebral palsy and you’re listening to Access All, can you burp? We want to know. I met a blind person once who didn’t burp but I don’t think that can be related, can it?

MARTIN- I just think this is great. I love how we just peg everything to being disabled. Like, you can’t burp because you’re blind. 

EMMA- Right, well let’s put the burps to one side for one second and go back to jobs. What kind of jobs have you had that maybe people might not have expected someone in your position to have had? 

NIKKI- Oh, I’ve had all sorts Emma. I was a checkout operator, and I loved that job. And it was quite physical because I was walking again at the time, but wobbling. I had to be very careful that I didn’t fall over, which used to happen quite a lot. I had to park outside. I had my little special route where, you know, I couldn’t go up a step so I had to find the ramp. You know all of these things that you have to do to sort of plan where you’re going. So, it wasn’t easy but I loved it. The only thing I did struggle with was when it was a tournament, like a football tournament or something, and everyone was buying massive crates of beer. And I’d be like, guys, throw an old dog a bone, I’m never going to be able to scan this. So, I just used to ask them to scan it themselves. I was just like, can you push it through, is that all right. 

EMMA- Yeah, because what else would there be doing? They’re just standing at the counter. 

NIKKI- Exactly. Put your back into it, go on, give me a hand. So, I did that. That was quite physical. 

EMMA- I sort of missed out I feel like on a lot of those sorts of jobs because they just weren’t particularly set up for me as a blind person. I don’t really care now, but I did at the time feel a little bit left out, because all my friends were working or most of them were. And also I’m Irish, and the age I am every single person of my age travelled. We’re big travelling people, Irish people. So, they went to Australia or they went to America or somewhere for a few weeks or a few months, but they worked their way round the country; they worked to get around. And I didn’t do that, and I think I’m the kind of person who would do that. 

NIKKI- Yeah. 

EMMA- I was thinking about this this morning, I’m the kind of person who would if able run about. Like I’d be racing about the place, working in a bar, working in a restaurant, running around, trying to be really efficient and probably not being very efficient. I don’t mind, but there’s definitely a bit of me that’s missing for not having done those sorts of jobs. And I think they really help you get into the sort of workplace mentality as well, and they’re a starter job for the next jobs, and it’s kind of harder to enter into a later on job when you haven’t done those earlier ones. 

NIKKI- That’s really interesting. I feel that, when you were saying about travelling, because I never did that kind of take your gap year and go off to Thailand or wherever. Just to me it just seemed too inaccessible and not particularly something I’d be able to do, so I just put it to one side. I don’t know whether I kind of hanker after that. I don’t know whether I regret not doing that. But it’s interesting, isn’t it, the things that we don’t do because we feel that we can’t at the time, or we can’t, or we just actually can’t do. 

EMMA- Yeah. But we do so many other things that other people don’t do. I’m not whingeing by any stretch, it’s just something that I did not do and I would have done. 

NIKKI- Not everything is accessible to everyone, disabled people or not. That’s just the world that we live in, isn’t it? 

EMMA- Yeah. 

NIKKI- In our theme tune each week you might have noticed we have seven different voices of disabled people or people related to disability or mental health. A number of people have asked who they are. [Singing] Who are they? So, Dave, our technical wizard through the window, let’s crank up the theme tune and go through these bad boys. 

THEME- I am proud of who I am.

NIKKI- Now, that there is Rosie Jones, the brilliant comedian, writer, actor. She’s just brilliant, isn’t she, Em?

EMMA- She is. And she does not care. She did opera for Comic Relief and it was my favourite bit of Rosie because she just didn’t care. 

THEME- When I was younger I was told I could be anything. 

NIKKI- Oh, that’s brilliant George. 

EMMA- George Webster from CBeebies. Every time he comes on I’m like ‘ooh, it’s George, kids it’s George! George!’ And they’re like, ‘yeah, it’s George, he’s great. But why do you have to keep talking about him?’

NIKKI- And George has got Downs Syndrome and he’s a singer and dancer, isn’t he?

EMMA- Yeah, and a CBeebies presenter. 

NIKKI- I love that. 

THEME- Being deaf, there’s nothing wrong. It’s such a joy to be deaf.

NIKKI- I mean, I don’t think I’m going to be able to read this one if she does come on the podcast because I just adore her. That was Rose Ayling-Ellis. Now, Rose is an EastEnders actor and of course the winner of Strictly Come Dancing with Giovanni Pernice.

EMMA- Yeah. And just saying, ‘it’s such a joy to be deaf’ on such a big stage I feel like it’s changed things a little bit for deaf people and everybody else. 

THEME- Please, live at the Apollo, hosting.

EMMA- I’ll take the blind one, will I?

NIKKI- Go on. 

EMMA- That’s Chris McCausland, comedian. He’s on all the panel shows now. And he just sounds so surprised and joyful to be on the stage at the Apollo. And it’s the tone of his voice, isn’t it, in that clip? 

NIKKI- I love him. 

THEME- I’m on the autism spectrum so I don’t really care about social codes. 

NIKKI- Well, that's Greta, isn’t it? Do we need to say more? 

EMMA- Greta Thunberg, environmental activist, world renowned. 

NIKKI- Do you think she’ll ever come on the podcast?

EMMA- We have asked her, so not yet.

NIKKI- Come on Greta. Okay, who have we got next?

THEME- They’re bringing into question should your child exist when he’s just on the swings next to you. 

NIKKI- That’s always very powerful that whenever I hear that. 

EMMA- Hmm.

NIKKI- That’s actor, activist, mother of a boy with Downs Syndrome, the brilliant Sally Phillips, Bridget Jones, loads of other great movies. 

EMMA- And she uses her platform to raise awareness of people with Downs Syndrome and their quality of life etc etc. 

NIKKI- She’s amazing.

EMMA- She’s a very funny woman. 

NIKKI- And the last one.

THEME- Wouldn’t it be great if everybody had someone to speak to where you could offload all of your week’s grief?

NIKKI- He makes a good point there, doesn’t he, Haza?

EMMA- Yeah, Prince Harry. I mean, I’ve got you, right? 

NIKKI- Oh, and I’ve got you, Emma. 

EMMA- Every week I just offload on you basically. 

NIKKI- I do the same to you. That’s basically what this is, isn’t it? 

EMMA- Basically.

NIKKI- I wonder how long they’ll let us go on doing it for. Well, I guess we’re going to have to mix it up at some point soon. But any suggestions, anyone you want us to feature, let us know. 

EMMA- Yes, so any voices you want to hear in that very beginning bit of our podcast, who are we going to swap Prince Harry out for? Who will Rosie be replaced with? 

Speaking of celebs, long before Kate Bush got back in the charts you were just dropping her in to every possible conversation, weren’t you? You’re a bit of a superfan. 

NIKKI- I’m a Kate Bush superfan without doubt, 100%, lifelong, lifelong fan. 

EMMA- Yeah. So, here’s when we were talking about the songstress just when she came back into the charts with Running Up That Hill due to Stranger Things. And you need to listen out though for the disability links because this is our remit to talk about disability; that’s what we’re supposed to do. 

NIKKI- And you might not think it sometimes. 

EMMA- Yeah, you may not think it. And this piece particularly we sort of were crowbarring the old disability in a bit. But here’s a great chat about Kate Bush and running up hills. 

Kate Bush is more your style, right? 

NIKKI- Stop it. Stranger Things, Kate Bush on track for number one, Running Up That Hill, oh my goodness Emma. [Sings] If I only could…

EMMA- Running Up That hill. Let’s not sing it. Here’s a clip. [Song clip] Oh that intro, though. 

NIKKI- It is amazing. It’s amazing. And I am just so excited that people are discovering what a brilliant song that is. That is just, I mean, ‘If I only could I’d make a deal with god and I’d get her to swap our places’, I mean what a lyric. How beautiful. Because Kate Bush she’s so empathetic. I could go on. I should probably stop, shouldn’t I? Because I went to a party last night and I shouted at Rick Stein, ‘I love you Rick Stein!’ I have a feeling this is going to end up in the same way. But I do, I love Kate Bush so much and I love that song. And I’m so happy that it’s in Stranger Things. But I was saying to you, Keiligh, I’ve only seen the first episode so I’ve seen how they use it in that, and I’m really excited because you’ve just told me that they use it in another episode. 

KEILIGH- Yes, in a very exciting episode. I would say small spoiler alert, but not so much that it’s going to ruin it for you or anyone at home, but if you want to be careful about your spoilers perhaps don’t listen to the next 30 seconds or so. 

NIKKI- Okay.

KEILIGH- But yeah, there’s a very exciting scene where one of the characters in it, her favourite song at that time is this Kate Bush song. 

NIKKI- Running Up That Hill. 

KEILIGH- And something bad is happening to her. And the way that her friends bring her back and basically save her life is by ramming like an old-school Walkman…

NIKKI- Walkman!

KEILIGH- …on her head and blast out Running Up That Hill by Kate Bush. And it saves her life. 

NIKKI- I’m going to cry. I will cry. 

KEILIGH- Yeah. It’s a real tearjerker of a scene. And the really cool thing about it is that in this week’s Radio Times writer Emma Clarke said that the way Stranger Things deals with monsters this season is very similar to how people deal with mental health things like depression and the way that the monster affects people; it has a lot in common with mental health.

NIKKI- Oh okay. 

EMMA- I was actually wondering why we were talking about this. 

NIKKI- No, but I’ll tell you I have got a link, a disability link with Kate Bush. 

EMMA- Oh?

NIKKI- Kate Bush kept me walking for longer.

EMMA- Up hills?

NIKKI- Not actually Kate Bush. 

EMMA- How? 

NIKKI- Now I’ve sold it, haven’t I? I’ve oversold it. 

EMMA- Was she your physio? Is that what she’s been doing all these years instead of singing? 

NIKKI- Kate Bush was my physiotherapist. No. When I used to walk, albeit it terribly and wobbling all over the place and falling over, I used to love dancing. And I wanted to be a dancer. I literally used to go around telling everyone I was going to be a ballerina. Everyone looked at me and went, you are definitely not going to be a ballerina. But anyway I got stronger because of it. And I used to just lock myself in a room and play Kate Bush and just dance for absolutely hours. And that physical exercise [song clip] but literally, I don’t know what I was doing, but I remember the feeling of just joy. You do have to stay active with my disability. It will go eventually, things will deteriorate eventually, but the longer you keep moving the better. And because of that dancing that I did on the reg girls I think I stayed stronger. 

EMMA- On the what? 

NIKKI- On the regular, on the reg. I know. 

EMMA- Is this a Love Island reference? 

NIKKI- For one second I forgot that I was actually 42 for a second there. I’m sorry. 

KEILIGH- But you’re right what you said about it being in the charts and stuff, it’s introduced a whole new generation to Kate Bush. 

NIKKI- Yes. 

KEILIGH- Which is amazing. It’s because of the streaming of the song, because of Stranger Things. But a lot of Gen-Zs for instance had never heard of her. 

NIKKI- No. 

KEILIGH- And now…

NIKKI- It was Radio 1. I was literally driving into work and it was Radio 1 and I was like oh my goodness, this is brilliant. I wanted to make a podcast called Searching for Bush. I’ll tell you about that another time. If it ever gets made I’m taking you two with me. 

EMMA- Okay. Can I say, [sings] Heathcliff, it’s me, it’s Cathy now, la, la, la.

KEILIGH- That’s uncanny. I know you’re taking the mick but I think you sound fantastic. 

NIKKI- Emma!

EMMA- I don’t know much Kate Bush but every time that song comes on it’s turned up and I sing it. 

NIKKI- Do you like it though, Em? Because I got the feeling when you were singing it there were like mocking. Irritating.

KEILIGH- Mocking yeah. 

NIKKI- Slightly rude. 

EMMA- No, no, it’s not irritating. 

KEILIGH- Disrespectful. 

NIKKI- Are you dissing my Bush? 

KEILIGH- She’s dissing the Bush!

EMMA- No. It’s the kind of sheer openness at which she sings that. The full energy and passion I love that. And I like putting on the voice as well. So, I don’t think that’s disrespectful, it’s I just love the sound of that chorus. 

NIKKI- Because I love you, Emma. Don’t make me not love you. 

EMMA- I know, I’m sorry, I know. 

KEILIGH- But she wrote that when she was like 18, didn’t she?

NIKKI- Yeah. She wrote, do you remember The Man With The Child In His Eyes?

KEILIGH- No. 

EMMA- No. 

NIKKI- [Singing] I hear, I focus on the day… Well, Kate Bush wrote that one around 13, 14.

EMMA- Wow. 

NIKKI- Yeah. It’s the most mature song, The Man With The Child In His Eyes. It’s a love song. Yeah, it’s beautiful. And you think, how can you just pop that out at that age. 

Well, thank you all for listening. We will be back properly next week, relaxed. We’ll be relaxed, won’t we Ems, hopefully?

EMMA- We will. We’ll be zen. In the meantime what would make me more zen is if you would subscribe to Access All on BBC Sounds. Tell your friends. Help them to subscribe. Show them how podcasts work. Let them know about us. We’d love them to listen. 

NIKKI- accessall@bbc.co.uk. Send us an email; we’d love to hear from you.

EMMA- Bye.

NIKKI- Bye.