One giant leap for disabled people?

25th November 2022

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 28

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

 

 

NIKKI-           A very exciting 24 hours that saw the announcement of our first disabled astronaut. And in the script it says para-astronaut. What would we say?

EMMA-         I don’t know. I’ve seen paranaut, which sounds like para-nothing to be.

NIKKI-           [Sings to tune of Coldplay’s Paradise] Para, para, paranaut.

EMMA-         It’s not even got the -astro bit in it. And then I’ve seen parastronaut.

NIKKI-           Yeah.

EMMA-         And I’ve seen para-astronaut. So, my thinking is, right, if you’re rubbish to average at something, like say swimming, you’re a disabled swimmer, and then when you become elite and brilliant at something you become a para-swimmer.

NIKKI-           Oh don’t. Is it international?

EMMA-         Well, yeah.

NIKKI-           Why do we have to say para-astronaut or paranstraut or paranaut or whatever it is we’re saying? It’s just an astronaut, no, isn’t it?

EMMA-         I don’t know. So, I wonder how long they’ll call them a parastronaut for. I wonder will that get dropped.

NIKKI-           I’m not saying that everyone should hide the fact that he’s disabled, because it’s quite exciting you know.

EMMA-         Yeah, it is.

NIKKI-           The fact that he might be launching himself into space and he’s got one leg, I’m all down for that. But I think there’ll be a time hopefully when we can drop the para from that astronaut. I just think he’s an astronaut; but let’s just mention that he’s also disabled.

EMMA-         I’m a parawoman.

NIKKI-           We’re not sporty enough to be para. I mean, I know you do your swimming and all that stuff, but we’re not that…

EMMA-         I’m a para ice-cream eater.

NIKKI-           What can we shove para in front of?

EMMA-         Noid.

NIKKI-           Noia, yeah.

MUSIC-         Theme.

NIKKI-           This is Access All. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-         And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-           Now, this is our weekly podcast all about disability and mental health from the BBC, brought to you by the same team that make the walloping Newscast, Ukrainecast and Americast. Now, if you think we’re half decent please do subscribe. You can share and tell your friends and colleagues about us.

EMMA-         Nikki, England won the World Cup.

NIKKI-           Okay, I mean I know nothing about sport, Emma, absolutely nothing, but I’m pretty sure the World Cup has just started.

EMMA-         Yes, but that’s soccer, which we’ll talk about in a minute. I want to talk about rugby league.

NIKKI-           No, soccer’s American.

EMMA-         Soccer is American, but you see I’m Irish, Nikki.

NIKKI-           Oh is it soccer in Ireland?

EMMA-         I would say soccer because football for me is Gaelic football.

NIKKI-           Oh!

EMMA-         Never assume, you see. Yeah, but I’m talking about wheelchair rugby league here, right.

NIKKI-           Oh.

EMMA-         Yeah. so, did you even know this was happening?

NIKKI-           Does that make me a bad disabled?

EMMA-         No, no because I don’t think that many people did, except for the 5,000 people who watched England beat France in the final. Let’s hear it.

NIKKI-           Oh, that’s exciting.

CLIP-             England with Hawkins now. Goes back in. Ball in one arm. He’s tackled. Plays it now to Halliwell. Halliwell ducks under. Turn Halliwell. The England captain has just scored the try! [Crowd cheers]

EMMA-         It’s very uplifting, isn’t it?

NIKKI-           Come on England! Ooh, it got me quite excited that did. What is wheelchair rugby though? Like you said, is everyone disabled? How does it work?

EMMA-         Well, [sings to the tune of Pulp’s 2000] it started in France in the year 200.

NIKKI-           Da, da, when we weren’t fully grown.

EMMA-         So, it’s a baby sport; it’s 22 years old. Disabled and non-disabled people of any gender and age can play.

NIKKI-           Oh wow.

EMMA-         Very inclusive. It’s five-a-side, apparently. You score tries, apparently, which is a rugby thing, I know that.

NIKKI-           Apparently.

EMMA-         And the aim of a tackle is to pull off a tag. Can I tell you that my sister’s boyfriend plays tag rugby, and I hear about tag rugby a lot, and I never knew there was an actual tag involved in tag rugby. People who are into it are really into it, and all the talk around the World Cup was about people starting up their own clubs and there being more clubs and more players to rely on. So, I was thinking should we get a wheelchair rugby league club started? Because obviously non-disabled people can play as well, so we’ve got a bigger pool.

NIKKI-           Absolutely not.

EMMA-         What?

NIKKI-           Can’t we just go for lunch?

EMMA-         Yeah.

NIKKI-           One thing I want to clarify about this whole thing, Emma, okay?

EMMA-         Yes.

NIKKI-           So, it’s brilliantly all-inclusive. Love that, right. But what if you end up with a team of disabled people on the one side and non-disabled people on the other side?

EMMA-         I believe you do have to balance it, so you do have to have a certain number of disabled people and non-disabled people on each team. I don’t know the ins and outs.

NIKKI-           It’s got to be fair, innit? So, I’m going to raise you another sports story here, Emma. FIFA President Gianni Infantino:

GIANNI-        Today I feel gay. Today I feel disabled.

NIKKI-           Yeah, he was speaking at a press conference ahead of the football World Cup in Qatar. Now, he spoke for nearly an hour, and he was basically accusing Europe of hypocrisy for criticising Qatar’s human rights record.

EMMA-         Yeah, but Infantino isn’t disabled though, is he?

NIKKI-           No, no, no, I don’t think he is. He went on to say this:

GIANNI-        I’m not gay, I’m not disabled, I’m not really a migrant worker, but I feel like them because I know what it means to be discriminated, to be bullied as a foreigner in a foreign country, as a child at school I was bullied because I had red hair and I had these red, how do you call them? [Aside: freckles]. Freckles. You see, I don’t even know the term.

EMMA-         So, does that make Mr FIFA President a disability ally?

NIKKI-           I’m going to say, just because he does rock what is my favourite hair colour of all, red, and something I wish I had, freckles, I don’t necessarily think it means that maketh him disabled.

EMMA-         No, but does it make him an ally? Because he feels all the things he reckons we feel as disabled people who are discriminated against.

NIKKI-           But I hear lots about this sort of word ally. When you speak about disabled allies, and I don’t quite understand necessarily what a disability ally is. Is that just a mate or someone that’s particularly empathetic, you know, an empathetic understanding person that’s attuned to issues other than those that affect them?

EMMA-         Well, I think you’ve kind of got it in a nutshell. I think ally is a bit of a quick word for that. But also it’s like someone who will stand up for you if the bus driver doesn’t let you on the bus because you’re using a wheelchair. It’s someone who’ll call things out, who will advocate, who will put all text on their pictures. It’s someone who thinks about it and who does the work basically.

NIKKI-           So, who’s a good ally then? Who’s a good disability ally?

EMMA-         Oh, can I tell you my favourite disability ally from this week?

NIKKI-           Go on.

EMMA-         Jack Grealish. But I didn’t even know who he was really until last week. But he and Finlay, a young fan with cerebral palsy have been breaking the internet with a funny dance.

NIKKI-           They have, because Jack plays for Manchester City and he’s on the England squad playing in Qatar at the moment. His little sister, Holly, also has cerebral palsy. So, when superfan Fin, asked Jack for a visit he made it happen. Now, Jack promised to do a special celebration for Finlay if he scored in the World Cup. And he did score in England’s very first match, which saw them win 6-2 against Iran. Come on England! And Jack did keep to his word. Finlay was on the Breakfast sofa the next day and this was his reaction to Jack doing the dance:

FINLAY-       At first I thought that he wouldn’t remember, but then when he did it I was just like, oh my god, he’s done the worm! Jack Grealish has done the worm!

NIKKI-           I love it.

EMMA-         Ah.

NIKKI-           I know, it was really quite a beautiful moment actually. Because Jack’s got his own experience of cerebral palsy with his sister – we’ve tried to get him on the show actually; Jack if you are listening by any miracle we’d love to speak to you and your sister – but yeah, it was really quite a beautiful moment, wasn’t it.

EMMA-         It was. And even the clips of Jack meeting Finlay, often when you see a non-disabled famous person meeting a young kid or a disabled person or someone with a learning disability who’s like a huge fan, I kind of call it inspiration porn because it’s for everybody to go, ah isn’t that so nice of that non-disabled person, isn’t it so…and isn’t this giving me all the feels. But he, when he met Finlay, Jack was just himself, he just got it, you could tell that Jack was a top ally. But I do have to ask, this worm dance, Nikki, any chance you can give us a wee devil?

NIKKI-           Well, I don’t know if I can, to be honest. I’m putting my papers down. I’ve got restrictions here; I’m far too disabled for the worm but I’m going to give it a go. Worm it Nikki.

EMMA-         Worm it, worm it.

NIKKI-           Was it a bit like that? You can’t see what I’m doing.

EMMA-         No, I can’t.

NIKKI-           To be honest, I’ve never looked more disabled in my life, but it’s kind of like a wiggle the arms in the air, not too high obviously.

EMMA-         Wiggle the arms in the air. Side to side or…?

NIKKI-           Lower down, at the side, outstretched, and then do a little it’s like a little roboty move I suppose. No, it’s not roboty, it’s wormy. It’s smooth.

EMMA-         I’m still not doing it right, am I?

NIKKI-           You're not doing it bad actually. Not bad.

EMMA-         So, sort of up and down with the arms.

NIKKI-           You’ve got the worm. Well done. That’s better than my attempt.

EMMA-         People are now calling it the Finlay.

NIKKI-           Oh, I love that.

EMMA-         So, I think now we should adopt this as our celebration dance. A modified version of the Finlay for you, Nikki.

NIKKI-           Okay, let’s do it. no, I’m going to attempt to do the full Finlay. I’m going to work on my biceps.

EMMA-         The full Finlay.

NIKKI-           The full Finlay. Now, remember you can email us with all of your thoughts on any of the stories that we’ve discussed today on accessall@bbc.co.uk, or anything that you actually want to chat about. Alternatively you can open up WhatsApp and send us a text or voice note. Our number is 0330 123 9480.

MUSIC-         Access All.

NIKKI-           Well, it’s been one small step for man, one giant leap for disabled people this week, as the European Space Agency, known as ESA, announced the world’s first ever disabled astronaut, otherwise known as a para-astronaut. Here’s the moment the news was revealed in Paris on Wednesday:

CLIP-             ‘Lift the curtain.’ ‘Big round of applause.’ [Applause] ‘Lots of smiles that we’re seeing here on the stage. This is our 2022 class of ESA astronauts. I’d like to say some names and introduce them to you. The first line, John McFall.

NIKKI-           Now, John is British and represented Paralympics GB at London 2012 on the athletics track. Here he is just a few minutes after that announcement.

JOHN-           I am, yeah, very excited. It’s been a long, long journey and I’m very proud to be here, and very grateful for ESA to give me the opportunity for such a brave and bold project that’s hopefully going to be very inspiring. When ESA announced that they were looking for candidates with a physical disability to run this astronaut feasibility project I looked at the person specification and it just called out to me. I felt so inspired by it, I felt compelled to apply. And I thought I would have the mix of skills and scientific background that I could really help them answer this very aspirational question of can we get someone with a physical disability to work in space safely. I thought I could be that person.

EMMA-         It’s the first time ESA has announced a new astronaut class since 2008. John, who had his right leg amputated at the age of 19 after a motorcycle accident, explained when and why he decided to apply for the role 18 months ago.

JOHN-           I’ve always been hugely interested in science. But I think being an amputee, being an astronaut was never really on my radar because, like the military, you wouldn’t pass the medical selection process. So, it’s never been on my radar from that point of view, so this is why this is such a great opportunity and such an inspiring opportunity.

NIKKI-           John is hoping to speak to Access All soon. But today we have got BBC’s science correspondent, Jonathan Amos, joining us from Paris. And Jonathan was there the moment the curtain was raised. Hello Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us today.

JONATHAN- Hi Nikki, it’s great to speak to you.

NIKKI-           It’s brilliant. Now, we weren’t there Jonathan, right, so paint us a picture. What was the event like? Tell us about the atmosphere.

JONATHAN- Well, it’s an enormous, well it’s a temporary exhibition hall here in Paris on that big stretch of grass behind the Eiffel Tower. And it’s really, really big and they’d bedecked it in flags and all this sort of blue and all the rest of it, all very European. They put all of the new astronauts behind a big curtain, we had this build-up, and they raised the curtain and there they were all standing there in their ESA jackets. Which I quite fancied one of those actually as a bit of merchandise, because I quite like a bit of merch. But it was exciting, it was good and it was fun. We’ve had to wait 13 years for a new class of astronauts in Europe, and now we’ve got one, which is just superb.

NIKKI-           I remember when they were advertising for this position, the qualifications, the credentials that you needed to apply, aside from the disability obviously, it was quite tough. What do we know about John when it comes to science and that selection process?

JONATHAN- It’s a little bit of a cliché, I know, but you need the right stuff. Now, what is the right stuff? The right stuff the definition of it has changed down the years. So, you go right back to the beginning and they were all fighter pilots, they had short hair, they cared too much about their own lives. But now that’s not really what they look for. They look for team players, they look for smart people obviously, you’ve got to be clever, but people who can keep calm in a tight spot, get on with everybody. Because if you’re stuck in a tin can like the Space Station for six months if you’re not a people person you’re not going to survive, and you’re certainly going to wind people up. So, John looks to me like a team player. And he’s super smart as well. He’s a trauma and orthopaedic specialist registrar, so he’s a doctor and surgeon, so those skills are going to be really, really useful. You don’t have to be a test pilot anymore; you just have to have relevant skills. And so he’s certainly got those in spades. He looks terrific.

NIKKI-           When I was reading his list of achievements I was like holy-moly, this fella has done so much. When it comes to actual disability, Jonathan, I remember also noticing that this wasn’t a job that was open to people with all kinds of disabilities; they were kind of specific, weren’t they? I think it was lower limb deficiency, as they described it.

JONATHAN- Yeah. He’s a blade runner, right, and a pretty good one at that. He was running the 100m in 13.5 seconds. It would take me 20 seconds, 25 seconds to breathlessly chug down 100m. So, he was super, super quick. But you’re right, they were looking for people of a very short stature perhaps, or this kind of disability, lower limb disability. And this is quite interesting, Nikki, we should talk about the feasibility project that he’s going to go into and the relevance of his disability to that, and what it will mean for his chances of actually getting to orbit. Because he’s not guaranteed a flight.

NIKKI-           Yeah, I was going to ask that. It’s not a given, is it?

JONATHAN- It’s not a given. They need to see that he can do certain things. I mean, let me give you an example: just imagine you’re sitting on the launchpad, you’re in your capsule on the top of the rocket, you’re about to go, and the call comes from mission control, there’s a problem, you need to get out, evacuate capsule quickly now, jump into a little sled on a zipwire and get the heck out of there as quickly as you can.

NIKKI-           Wow.

JONATHAN- And your ability to do that is obviously pertinent to your own safety, but to the safety of the other people in that capsule. But for certain types of disability that would prove a big hurdle, a really big hurdle.

NIKKI-           Oh, I mean give me five hours, Jonathan.

JONATHAN- Exactly.

EMMA-         I’d be like, ‘where’s the sled? Where’s the zipwire?’. I’m blind, Jonathan, so that would be my thing.

JONATHAN- You get it.

EMMA-         Yeah.

NIKKI-           What are the nuts and bolts, Jonathan, of this role? Is he now going to be fully employed by ESA or does he carry on with his own work and then sort of go for training? How does it work?

JONATHAN- He’ll carry on in his NHS duties. I’m sure they’ll give him the time off to go to Cologne, which is where the astronaut centre is in Europe. Probably to Houston as well where they train the American astronauts. And they’ll put him through a series of tests. They’ll give him similar sorts of tasks that they get the other astronauts to do, like they put you in a space suit and they weight you, and then they put you in a big swimming pool and then they say go and fix this on this submerged space station that we have. That simulates the weightless environment of space, and they’ll see how he gets on. They’ll want to know if any of the space vehicles will need certain adaptations. I mean, we’ve got used to that on Earth, and seeing those adaptations put in buildings. Does he need anything? You know, he’ll be able to answer that question. And then they’ll go forward from there. So, it's going to be interesting to watch. But ESA the agency says, ‘If we can make this happen we will make it happen’, and there’s no doubt he’s going to get support from the British government in that. So, I will not be surprised if in a few years, and he’ll have to get in the queue obviously for an opportunity, but I wouldn’t be surprised in a few years we see him sitting on the top of a rocket.

NIKKI-           So, you’d put money on that would you, Jonathan?

JONATHAN- Yes, I would, I would.

EMMA-         Just really thinking about the weightlessness and being blind, I’m terrible at spatial awareness anyway and I wouldn’t have a great sense of direction, but I rely very much on corners and edges and sides and hard sounds like [knocks] like echoes [makes clicking noise] to find out where I am, and stuff like that. I just cannot, and I know we’ve had blind people in America do the weightlessness thing, but I just can’t imagine it. So, I guess clearly they’re not going to pick me as the first blind person in space because I’m so negative about it, but I just can’t imagine it. So, I’m really excited.

NIKKI-           PMA, Emma, PMA.

EMMA-         Yeah. really, really excited to see how this all develops.

JONATHAN- The other thing about the Space Station of course is because space, when I mean space I mean the space available to move around, inside the Space Station is quite limited. The Space Station if you look at it it’s kind of how my daughters used to keep their bedrooms, which is a terrible mess. Stuff is all pushed up against the walls, anywhere you can find space to put stuff. It’s very, very cluttered.

EMMA-         It’s funny because actually I have never thought about what it looks like or what it’s like inside or what a rocket is like inside or anything. And I guess people see the pictures, but I’ve never even thought of conceptualising what it’s like. So, that’s really, really interesting and useful for my brain, thank you.

JONATHAN- It’s actually very noisy as well because there are a lot of fans going. Because imagine you’re in a sealed tube or several tubes and they need to exchange the air and all that kind of stuff. So, it’s not a quiet place. And in fact when some of the visiting vehicles come, the cargo ships come, they’re quite quiet in comparison to the rest of the Space Station. So, they’re not supposed to but some of the astronauts go off and have a little nap in the corner of these cargo ships because they’re relatively quiet compared to the rest of the Space Station.

EMMA-         Oh wow.

NIKKI-           Well, we’ve been speaking about the role and what it will entail. But John has obviously got his own hopes and dreams for the job, and we’ve got a little clip of him now talking about that:

JOHN-           I would love to go on a mission into space and the International Space Station would be fantastic. But it would be amazing to be part of the Artemis project. So, going to the moon would be one of my aspirations.

NIKKI-           Oh, it’s been a very exciting 24 hours, hasn’t it?

EMMA-         Yeah.

NIKKI-           Was it great to be there, Jonathan?

JONATHAN- I was in Paris when they presented Tim Peake.

NIKKI-           He didn’t do much, did he?

JONATHAN- He became famous didn’t he, I think?

EMMA-         Yeah, he did.

JONATHAN- But at that time the UK really didn’t do astronauts, it didn’t even really get involved with the Space Station, the treaty that brought the International Space Station into being. But then sort of kind of walked out the door and kept walking. It was a bit of a ruse actually by the then director general of the European Space Agency, a man called Jean-Jacques Dordain who thought, if I appoint a British astronaut the Brits will feel a bit embarrassed and will have to start contributing money to it.

NIKKI-           Smart move.

JONATHAN- It was a ruse that worked. It worked, right? And I think then when the British government saw the reaction to Tim Peake, the impact that he has. If you see him go into a school, right, it’s crazy.

NIKKI-           I’ve seen that on the One Show, yeah.

JONATHAN- It’s difficult to buy that inspiration. It’s incredible. And in an astronaut you can literally buy inspiration.

NIKKI-           Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been brilliant, because we weren’t there, but you’ve really painted a lovely picture for us. And it’s all very exciting. It’s all very exciting.

EMMA-         Thank you.

JONATHAN- That was good fun.

NIKKI-           Thank you so much and have a safe journey back.

JONATHAN- Take care, bye bye.

NIKKI-           It’s been a great show. Thank you so much for listening. Now, as always you can email us, the email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk. And if you want to grab your blower now, open WhatsApp…

EMMA-         Your blower?

NIKKI-           Blower, telephone, Ems, telephone.

EMMA-         Oh okay.

NIKKI-           Open up WhatsApp and put our number in. save it, drop us a voice note or send us a message. The numbers is 0330 123 9480. Bye.

EMMA-         Bye.

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