Comedian Rosie Jones on imposter syndrome and ableism

24th February 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 41

 

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

 

NIKKI-           The thing is, right, I do very long hours so I kind of occasionally sneak in a wax after the podcast. It’s the perfect timing, perfect location. I’m going for the full body.

EMMA-         The pain! I do not like pain. Is it painful?

NIKKI-           I love a bit of pain. It’s not that I love pain, I’m used to pain. It doesn’t bother me, I’m very good, I just lie there, boom-boom-boom let’s get it done. But literally I am a beast. For a blonde person, I am hairy. I mean hair-ree. Hair-ree!

EMMA-         [Laughs]

NIKKI-           Woo! My toes. My toes.

EMMA-         Stop it! [Laughs]

NIKKI-           I literally have to get every single individual toe done. I mean I won’t talk about any other areas, but just trust me. It would be easier just to dip my whole body in that hot wax and just find a way of protecting the hair and the eyebrows and lashes and just go for it and peel it off.

EMMA-         Do you go to a special disability waxing house?

NIKKI-           There she goes. [Laughs]

EMMA-         Do you?

NIKKI-           Do you know what, I don’t. But I do have to find somewhere that does have a bed that goes up and down. That is a good point. And when I was younger I was very scared, because I thought to myself I’ll get on the bed because I’ll have someone with me to help me, but then what if I need to move my leg and I can’t do it that particular time myself and would they mind? I put it off for ages, and then at like 20 I thought no I’m going to tackle this, I’m going to go and I’m going to be brave. And actually some of the friendliest people and the friendliest places are where you get your wax, and every single person has helped me.

EMMA-         Well actually you’re right.

NIKKI-           But Emma, look, I just realised you’re asking me those questions and just as a way so I don’t answer your question.

EMMA-         Yeah, so what else can I ask you about waxing? Er ...

NIKKI-           So what do you do? Are you a shaver, Emma, or do you use hot wax?

EMMA-         Er!

MUSIC-         Theme music

NIKKI-           It’s Access All. We are all about disability, mental health and so much more, all in a tightly packed nifty little weekly podcast. I’m Nikki Fox, and I’m in London.

EMMA-         And I’m Emma Tracey, and I’m in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-           This week a big mental health charity is asking government to keep its promise. And later, we have got the hardest working woman in disability showbiz.

EMMA-         That’s a thing, is it, disability showbusiness?

NIKKI-           Yeah, well it really is, because it’s Rosie Jones. It’s Rosie Jones!

EMMA-         This business we call disability showbiz.

NIKKI-           [Sings] “Showbiz”.

EMMA-         Tell your friends and colleagues about us and get them to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, or wherever you get your podcast from.

MUSIC-         Music

NIKKI-           The nation’s mental health is at an all-time low, and we all know the pandemic made an already bad situation worse. Last April the government promised to create a 10 year mental health plan for England. Emma has more detail.

EMMA-         Yes. Mental health charities like Rethink and others asked their members to get involved and to feed into that plan, and 5,000 people did so. However, this January it was announced that the plan would be scrapped and it would be brought into a whole body strategy which would include medical conditions like dementia, cancer, diabetes and arthritis.

NIKKI-           We’ve got a clip here from the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Steve Barclay, making his announcement in the House of Commons.

STEVE-         Mr Speaker, I am pleased to announce that we will be developing and publishing a major conditions strategy. Around 60% of disability-adjusted life years in England are accounted for by just six conditions: across cancer; cardiovascular disease; chronic respiratory disease; dementia; muscular skeletal disease; and mental health. An increasing number of us live with one or more of these conditions. Tackling them is a significant opportunity to improve the lives of millions of people and support our goal to improve healthy life expectancy. This work will bring together our existing commitments to develop plans for mental health, cancer, dementia and health disparities, and our new strategy will shift our focus to focus on integrated whole person care.

NIKKI-           The charity Rethink has not taken this lying down and has launched its Keep Your Promise campaign to see if they can get the government to reconsider. To talk more about this, we are joined by Jeremy Bernhaut who is the Head of Policy and Influencing at Rethink. We’re also joined by Rick Burgess, and Rick is from Recovery in the Bin, which describes itself as an activist collective of mental health survivors and supporters. Hello Jeremy, hello Rick.

RICK-            Hiya.

JEREMY-      Hello. Thanks for having us.

NIKKI-           I’m going to start with you, Jeremy. What had been the hope last April when the government announced its 10 year mental health plan?

JEREMY-      So, at Rethink Mental Illness, we’ve been calling for a cross-government plan for mental health and wellbeing for several years. At the moment we have soaring demand for NHS services, and there’s a need to address what’s causing people to be unwell in the first place, and also to address what can help them get better after they’re ill aside from just the services that are funded by the NHS. So we’re talking about the work that government can do with people’s housing, with the way people interact with the welfare system, the way that schools tackle mental health.

And last April it seemed the government got it. They launched a consultation paper and a discussion document about a 10 year plan for mental health and wellbeing that would seek to tackle the drivers of poor mental health across the whole of society, and would build a plan that would bring in every government department and every arm of the state to try its hardest to prevent people from getting ill, and to help them get better when they do.

We hoped they were going to publish this plan, they told us they were going to before the end of the year, but a few weeks ago it emerged that that plan has now been scrapped in favour of a much more shorter-term plan that blends mental health with a whole range of other conditions and loses that important focus that we need. We’re urging the government to reconsider and to publish the 10 year plan that’s needed in order to address the soaring demand that the NHS is facing.

NIKKI-           Is it the merging and the shortness, are they the two main issues for you?

JEREMY-      At the moment there is so much pressure on NHS services because people are getting ill, and it’s really hard to address your mental health if you’re worried about your housing, or if you’re interacting with the benefits system, and the way the benefits system is treating you is in of itself affecting your mental health. What it seemed like the government got last year, was that the government has at its hands a whole load of government departments filled with smart people who are able to think through how the policies of each of those government departments can contribute to better mental health. That would have been a world leading approach to addressing the mental health crisis in this country.

It’s that plan that’s really badly needed, and that’s why we’re asking people to write to their MPs, and several hundred have so far, calling for this plan to be reintroduced in order that it can tackle mental health over the long-term, help people get better, and reduce that demand on the NHS.

EMMA-         5,000 people fed into the consultation. What was their reaction? How did they feel when the plan was scrapped and this strategy was brought in instead?

JEREMY-      The government have now come back to us and asked us for help with finding people with mental illness to help shape the major conditions strategy. And it’s actually really hard to go back to people and say, “You know you helped us shape the plan that they were working on last year? Well now we’ve got a plan which isn’t just about mental health and is shorter-term and we kind of need your help shaping this plan now”. And that’s a really difficult ask for people, because people are naturally really disappointed, and they feel like the time and the energy and the effort of telling their own personal stories and giving their views has gone to waste. So, it’s disappointing all round. I think that if the government were to change their mind and reintroduce the 10 year plan for mental health and wellbeing, I think that would be met with a lot of enthusiasm.

NIKKI-           Rick, I want to bring you in here. Thank you so much, Jeremy. I just want to bring you in here now as well. You’ve got personal experience of mental health challenges. Do you mind first off just telling us a little bit about that experience for you?

RICK-            Well I’m part of a growing cohort of which I guess we’re described as service avoiders. People who have had experience of the system and that experience was not good, and we find ways to avoid it and rely on friends, peer groups and good luck really.  If you go into crisis, it is debateable whether you would want to ask for help from services or not. So, I’m a service avoider.

NIKKI-           Service avoider. That’s very interesting, Rick. I would like to speak to you more about that actually. But I just want to go back to the 10 year plan, because you obviously knew it was being created last year, and I wonder what your hopes were for it?

RICK-            Our hopes weren’t high because there was no promise of funding behind the strategy. So when it was abandoned, and what was interesting is they managed to find a way of not only of abandoning not a particularly promising or funded strategy, and then rather than just leave with kind of nothing, they’ve managed to find a new approach which seems worse than doing nothing. From the minister’s announcement, it does suggest it’s from the point-of-view of sort of the management of population health in the name of saving money and pushing people into employment. And to be honest, at present none of the political parties appear to be willing to actually grasp the huge job that is needed and to take mental health seriously.

EMMA-         The announcement that the mental health plan is to be replaced has left some people furious. We heard from a different Nicky, a 39 year old north Londoner who works as a senior autism practitioner in a special needs school.

NICKY-         I didn’t know about the 10 year plan, but when I heard about the plan and that it had been scrapped, I felt angry. There was a whole big thing during COVID about anxiety and taking care of your mental health. But when you’re like me and so many others who don’t have the personal support and not bad enough to need support, you’re on your own. The government is basically saying we can’t see what’s wrong with you so we won’t be taking it into account. That’s until there is an incident where we will report that the person involved may have had mental health needs.

NIKKI-           Well, we’ve got a government statement here actually, because we reached out to the Department of Health and Social Care to ask about all of this, and it said it’s grateful to everyone who took part in the consultation and it would feed into the development of the policies. It goes on to say, “a joined up major conditions strategy will ensure our approach to the treatment and prevention of the conditions covered, is joined up with care centred around the patient”. We’ll keep you updated on this story, and thank you both so much for coming in today.

RICK-            Thanks very much.

JEREMY-      Lovely to meet you all.

EMMA-         Bye.

MUSIC-         Access All

NIKKI-           Well it’s a story as old as time, ‘innit, for disabled people. We are talking obstacles in the street. It doesn’t sound particularly sexy but it’s very painful. Wales is making plans to fine drivers £70 if they park on a pavement, which would then get in the way of someone that needed a bit more space. In Scotland, they want to make it easier to put chairs and tables outside restaurants by withdrawing the need for a permit. So one’s trying to get rid of the obstacle, the other is trying to create one. To help us understand what it feels like to come up against obstacles when really you just want to go and get a pint with some mates, we have got Holly Garrow from campaigning organisation Transport for All. Hello, Holly.

HOLLY-         Hi. Thanks for having me.

NIKKI-           Let’s start with this street furniture issue. This all came about, didn’t it, around the pandemic, because I know I got quite a few emails about this in my role as disability correspondent, and people were saying it looks great, I love the whole kind of Mediterranean vibe, but I literally can’t get anywhere. This was mainly London. Scotland hopes to change the law next month, as I was saying. What will more chairs and tables outside mean for you?

HOLLY-         I’m a part-time wheelchair user, and when I’m not in my wheelchair I’m using a walking stick, so it’s actually different for me depending on the day. As a wheelchair user, if I’m going down the street and my path is blocked by street furniture, it’s not just massively inconvenient, it can be hazardous because it might mean that I need to try and get onto a road to get past. It could mean that I need to rethink my whole journey. If I’m running for an appointment then I’ll be late for that. I have to rethink a lot of things going on there. As someone with a walking stick and an energy limiting condition, it’s actually quite helpful to come across street furniture where I could take a seat if needed.

EMMA-         If it’s seen to be obstruction, the council can ask restaurants to take the furniture inside. Is that a good compromise? Is that a reasonable thing to be asked to do, to complain about something before it’s changed?

HOLLY-         It’s essential that there is somewhere where you can complain if you need to. But it’s been that burden on disabled people for a long time that we have to make these complaints and we have to campaign for ourselves, and often the way that we’re asked to make complaints isn’t necessarily accessible. Really at the end of the day, the responsibility should be on councils and local authorities to make these areas safe and accessible in the first place.

NIKKI-           I’m hearing a lot of disabled people at the moment saying we just really don’t want to have to fight all the time and get on with life. But on the other story, Holly, Wales wants to bring in fines for pavement parking, which for many would be very welcome. But Holly, if a pavement is blocked by a car, how do wheelchair users deal with that?

HOLLY-         It can be very difficult. If there’s not a lot of room to go past the car on a pavement, which a lot of the time there isn’t when you’re in a wheelchair, you’re left with the very dangerous option of I have to go onto the road and manoeuvre around it. You don’t know how busy that road’s going to be. As a wheelchair user, I can’t see over the car so I’m not really sure what the incoming traffic looks like. There’s not necessarily even going to be a dropped kerb to help me get onto the road, so it might be that I just have to turn around and rethink my entire route.

NIKKI-           Different laws apply, don’t they, depending on where you are in the UK. Scotland already has a law against it, but they haven’t been enforced yet. Pavement parking is illegal in London. Holly, do you think these laws should just be UK wide?

HOLLY-         Oh absolutely, yeah. We did a research recently with Sustrans, the Disabled Citizens’ Inquiry on Walking and Wheeling, and from that we gathered about 70% of disabled people said that they would be able to walk or wheel more if the pavement parking and other obstructions were reduced. I think that’s just as clear as day that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

EMMA-         I just want to briefly mention that Transport for All did have a campaign called Trim Your Bush, Nikki, just because I know you’re really into waxing etc today, and it was about overhanging foliage and blind people, and asking people to get their secateurs out and lob off any branches or whatever that blind people might hit. When you’re walking along, you’re only getting information from your white cane on the floor, and you’re not getting it from head height. Trim your bush guys, trim your bush.

NIKKI-           On that note, I will be removing my foliage. It’s been so lovely to speak to you, Holly. I know a lot of disabled people are getting very tired of having to fight for basic rights like this, but I do appreciate you coming on and having a chat. And keep up all the work that you’re doing.

HOLLY-         Thank you so much for having me on to chat.

EMMA-         We actually didn’t even get to mention the petitions that were brought to Downing Street this week by people who are worried about changes in staff levels in trains and on stations. I love that ‘on stations’ business. But yeah, it’s a really serious thing and we didn’t get to mention that either.

NIKKI-           And also, Sophie Morgan’s campaign that she’s working on to improve the aviation industry for disabled people. I mean she’s been everywhere. She was on BBC Breakfast this morning. She’s got this letter that she’s urging everyone to go onto Disability Rights UK, download and sign and send to your local MP. Accessible bathrooms, wheelchair spaces on planes, amongst many other issues.

EMMA-         Stuff we’ve been banging on about since we started last April, and will continue to go on about until changes are made, I reckon.

NIKKI-           If you want to get in touch with us, you can do that in all manner of ways. Tell us what you want us to look into. Do you want us to talk about waxing more?

EMMA-         No.

NIKKI-           You can get in touch via WhatsApp, 0330 1239480. Or you could email us like apparently Skippy, Ian Cook and others have. Our address is accessall@bbc.co.uk We can’t answer everyone, but I promise you we will read every message we get.

MUSIC-         Access All

NIKKI-           Hello. Come on in. It’s my favourite bird off the telly. How are you? She’s looking dead cool again, Ems, that Rosie Jones.

EMMA-         Of course she is. What else would she be looking?

NIKKI-           Wet your cans on, girl. Thank you for coming in again.

ROSIE-          I feel like we can talk for hours.

NIKKI-           I know. I know.

ROSIE-          Yeah.

NIKKI-           My mission in life is to at some point catch you for a bevvie.

ROSIE-          Exactly. Oh my goodness, how are we here again and not in the pub?

NIKKI-           She has a got a very good booty, Emma.

EMMA-         Who? Rosie?

ROSIE-          Me!

NIKKI-           Yeah, she’s got a great bum.

ROSIE-          Fun fact, only one bum cheek has she got, because of how I walk I really turn out one bum cheek. So I could get half a ‘Rear of the Year’.

EMMA-         Just half?

ROSIE-          Yeah.

NIKKI-           You know honestly Ems, there’s an actual thing in this, because I’ve got quite a good bum and it’s very big and it’s very high, right, and people see me and they’re like, “Oh my goodness, your bum is like amazing”. It’s because of how I used to walk always on my toes.

ROSIE-          Yeah.

NIKKI-           It was like I was in high heels from a baby.

ROSIE-          Yeah. Yeah.

EMMA-         I have no bum. Maybe that’s because I’ve never had trouble walking.

ROSIE-          Yeah. You need to have problems walking.

NIKKI-           Acquire a physical disability, love!

ROSIE-          Then you would have a cracking arse.

EMMA-         Okay. Okay.

NIKKI-           Right, shall we do it? We are now with comedian, writer, author, actor, legend. She’s telling me to keep going, keep going.

ROSIE-          Keep going.

NIKKI-           It’s only Rosie Jones. Rosie Jones is back with us.

ROSIE-          Hello.

NIKKI-           Hello, Rosie. Let’s start with the tour, because the tour is coming. How are you feeling about it?

ROSIE-          I’m feeling good. It’s interesting because this will be my first ever tour, which people are surprised about. But I’ve really only been doing comedy for six years, and two of those were wiped out by a pandemic. So, yeah I’m excited. I’m a little bit scared.

NIKKI-           Do you think a lot of comedians feel that way though? People paying to see you, there is a lot of pressure on that.

ROSIE-          I’m constantly frightened that internalised ableism and going out thinking of a comedian stereotype that I grew up with, which was male, non-disabled, straight, loud, talking really quick. And when you come to see me, sure you don’t get fast paced jokes, but I guarantee you will laugh a lot. So yeah, I mean I guess being a woman you do have imposter syndrome, but then you go, ‘No way.  I work hard and I’m worthy of my own tour’.

NIKKI-           Yes. And you’ve worked so hard. If you think about it, you’ve probably been on more shows that Romesh Ranganathan. That’s the right pronunciation, isn’t it?

ROSIE-          Yeah.

NIKKI-           Lovely Romesh, I love him. I was the Weakest Link and he was very nice to me. I was first off.

ROSIE-          Oh no.

NIKKI-           Yeah. But you’ve been on so many shows. Do you think there’s a flipside to that, that other comedians might be looking thinking, ‘That Rosie, she’s on everything. She’s nicking all the jobs’.

EMMA-         All the disabled comedian jobs.

ROSIE-          That’s it. And actually selfishly I like that, because it’s bought me a lovely house. I’m very rich. I feel like there’s several different answers I could give. Yes I’m on TV, I’m on the radio a lot, but by me going on those shows and using my platform, it’s my hope and my dream that I can encourage more disabled people to come into the industry. I don’t think I’m taking jobs from other disabled people. We’re still unfortunately at a stage where they’re getting either me or another white, straight, non-disabled person. So it is my ultimate dream that I can go on a panel show and be amongst two/three/four other disabled people. But right now we need more people to join comedy.

EMMA-         Yeah. So you’re in the door, you have a platform, and you’ve also used that for political reasons and gone on Question Time. Is that a good thing for a comedian to do? What was your experience of Question Time?

ROSIE-          I’ve done it twice now, and both times I started trending on Twitter from all the abuse I was getting.

NIKKI-           Oh, Rosie.

EMMA-         What were they saying to you?

ROSIE-          Literally every ableist abuse under the sun. They told me that I should be in a cage.

NIKKI-           What?!

ROSIE-          I shouldn’t be on TV. I should die. And it was because I was exposing myself to a different kind of audience. I think Question Time is brilliant, but it attracts a lot of angry people, and not only being female, disabled, gay. So, would I do it again? Yes. But I would go in there more prepared. I’d probably shut my Twitter down for a few weeks. But yeah, it is hard because I will always be political, I will always speak for what I believe, I will always champion diversity. But it’s hard, and it’s exhausting.

NIKKI-           When we were talking about it before, I find that really upsetting actually that level that you got. When we were talking about it as a team I was like, “Oh yeah, when I first went on Watchdog I got told that I had eyebrows like McDonald’s golden arches”. Do you know what I mean? It was the visual kind of stuff. And Nikki Fox looked strange. But that level, that must have been hard.

ROSIE-          Yeah. And I think being a woman and being gay means that every time I’m on TV I’ll get a comment about what I sound like, my disability, my weight, and then what I look like, my teeth, my hair, and then the gay stuff. And what is awful, is every single one of those negative thoughts, I can go on social media right now and a stranger will be saying them back to me. So you’re right, yeah, whatever thoughts you’ve ever had, I’m here to say you’re right. It’s so hard.

I’m trying to bring this back to my normal positive self, but it’s on my mind quite a lot, because I’m currently filming a documentary about online abuse and ableism, and that has been quite hard for me because a lot of the things that I’ve shut away, mashed over, I’ve had to confront. And because of that, I’m in therapy. I would recommend therapy for literally everyone out there, because I’m really dealing with a lot of internalised ableism and things that I probably painted over with a joke. But what I will say is, by talking about this I feel a lot of release, and it’s actually going. I am [inaudible], I am not that over-optimistic, eternally happy human being who goes, “I love being disabled every day”, because I don’t because society wears me down. I now think in order to eradicate that, in order to face the abuses, I’ve got to come here and go, “You know what, it’s not okay”.

NIKKI-           Oh Rosie.

EMMA-         Oh my god, you’re fabulous.

NIKKI-           I know. Even as a child I’d be like, “Yeah, I love being disabled”. When’s the tour? When does it start?

ROSIE-          It’s starting next week, 3rd March.

NIKKI-           That’s my birthday!

ROSIE-          Oh, good!

EMMA-         You must have felt under some pressure to make all the rooms accessible this time after people jumping on your head.

ROSIE-          My production company had to ring up every venue and say, “Right, what can you do?”, and any venue that said, “No we can’t do that”, we were like, “Right, Rosie won’t go there”.

NIKKI-           See you later, Alligator.

ROSIE-          Yeah.

NIKKI-           You see, that’s good. These things that you’re doing, just literally touring will hopefully change certain things, because it might make venues think twice.

EMMA-         Yeah. Just chip, chip, chipping away.

NIKKI-           Chip, chipping away. And do you have rider, Rosie Jones, is what I want to know? What’s in your rider?

ROSIE-          Oh my god, it says the most embarrassing thing.

NIKKI-           Go on.

ROSIE-          Cup of tea.

MUSIC-         Music

NIKKI-           That’s another show over. I’m off to sneak in a full body wax.

EMMA-         And I’m off to make some belated disability friendly pancakes.

NIKKI-           Oh lush. You can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds, look for Access All, and if you like us just tell everyone you know.

EMMA-         And top tip, if you’ve got the BBC Sounds skill on your smart speaker say, “Ask the BBC for Access All” and it’ll play you the latest episode.

NIKKI-           How smart is that?! Until next week everyone.

EMMA-         Goodbye.

NIKKI-           Bye.

MUSIC-         Music

NIKKI-           What is a disability friendly pancake, Em?

EMMA-         I think it’s one you don’t have to toss, maybe?

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