TV’s Sophie Morgan’s “rage” over Blue Badge car theft

NIKKI- I get these little alerts every day that come to my phone to sort of show me all the disability news articles and this one popped up: Sex On Wheels, a comic blending sex and disability to tell a meaningful story. I love talking to you about this kind of stuff because I know you really, really don’t like talking about it.

EMMA- Well, I’m just trying to think of what search terms you had in, and I think you had sex in as a search term.

NIKKI- I totally didn’t.

EMMA- In your alerts. 

NIKKI- I didn’t! It came up, that’s why I brought it up because it’s unusual, Ems, you know.

EMMA- So, what do you want to talk about in relation to this comic? Is it very innovative? Is it something we’ve not seen before? And what on earth could that be, getting down and dirty on a sleeper train? Finding different positions on your scooter? 

NIKKI- I do think that there’s chats to be had around this subject. I think it’s covered sometimes. Obviously this is like looking at it from the perspective of physically disabled people, hence the wheels. But it got me thinking, Ems.

EMMA- Hmm.

NIKKI- I don’t want to go like…I get nervous when I ask you questions and they involve you being blind.

EMMA- Get your inner taxi driver going because they are the people who ask me all the questions about oh my eyes, the inner workings of them, why they don’t work, where, what happens, how do I do life without eyes that work.

NIKKI- So, I was wondering, right, you’ve been blind all your life, correct?

EMMA- Ping!

NIKKI- Do you feel sexy? Because you can’t see yourself. Now, you are beautiful and you are sexy, okay.

EMMA- What? No, I can’t see myself, that’s right, Nikki. 

NIKKI- You can’t see yourself. 

EMMA- No, that’s right. Do I feel sexy?

NIKKI- As a blind person. I’ve said it again. 

EMMA- Why would you ask me that? 

NIKKI- It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because like when I was younger, Ems, I used to wobble around school. I’ve already told you I was very hairy, I was like a Wookie. 

EMMA- Come on, stop talking about the hair!

NIKKI- Listen, I had crooked teeth, I looked awful. 

EMMA- Listen, you can’t ask me if I feel sexy being blind.

NIKKI- Why not?

EMMA- Because it’s like…it’s just not…there’s something wrong with that question. 

NIKKI- There is nothing wrong with that question. That is curiosity. You’re still not giving me much to go on. 

EMMA- Listen, there are more important things to talk about! Can we start the programme now please?

NIKKI- Emma…

MUSIC- Theme music. 

NIKKI- I’m Nikki Fox and this is Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m in London.

EMMA- And in Edinburgh I’m Emma Tracey.

NIKKI- Today we’re going to be chatting to TV presenter Sophie Morgan. Now, she is one of the busiest, she’s presenting, she’s campaigning. But at the weekend something happened that could potentially slow her down – it won’t obviously, because it’s Sophie Morgan and she is a machine – but it is something that many listeners will relate to.

EMMA- Hmm, intriguing. 

NIKKI- Have I intrigued you there, Emma Tracey? 

EMMA- You have. The new spring rollout of COVID vaccines has been announced, but who’s on the priority list?

NIKKI- And could you do with a few extra zips in your pants? Or how do you fancy a pair of jeans that when you sit down they don’t show your bum? Later we’re talking fashion, turn to the left, fashion – as David Bowie would sing, much better than me. I love David Bowie.

EMMA- Subscribe to us now, Access All, on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. 

Nikki, have you ever had your Blue Badge stolen?

NIKKI- Do you know what, I haven’t, and I know that I’m so lucky that I haven’t.

EMMA- There’s no point in talking to you about Blue Badge theft then seeing as you’ve not had yours stolen. Maybe we should talk to someone who has. 

NIKKI- Someone who has, and we’ve got her on the line as someone who has had her badge recently stolen is TV presenter, I mean superstar TV presenter, you’ve got about a gazillion jobs at the moment, haven’t you, Soph? You’ve had your series for Channel 4, you’ve got Crufts, you’ve got all sorts going on. 

EMMA- Loose Women. 

NIKKI- We’re joined by the wonderful Sophie Morgan. Sadly, we’ve got so much we could talk to you about, but today we’re going to talk to you about Blue Badges because you’ve just had yours stolen, haven’t you? 

SOPHIE- Hi Nikki, hi Emma. Yeah, I did, I did. My car got broken into, they’ve smashed the window on the passenger side.

NIKKI- So, your car’s damaged as well?

SOPHIE- Yeah, the car’s damaged, exactly. It’s a Motability car so I’ve got to get that fixed, and that’s going to take some time, I think they said three weeks. And then obviously I’ve got to get the badge replaced, that’s going to take some time as well, I think again another couple of weeks. In the meantime it’s, what, taxis and tubes. And as we all know they’re either expensive or unreliable, so it’s not ideal at all. Right, the badge gets stolen, why, why am I dependent as a human being on a little plastic card? And why are they so valuable? I think somebody said they resell for like, they’re worth about 500 quid.

NIKKI- Really?

SOPHIE- Yeah, that’s what somebody said to me. I don’t know what the going rate is but apparently that’s what it is. And I think I see such misuse of badges in my life when I’m out and about and I’m waiting for a parking spot and someone sort of comes out and gives me an awkward wave because they’re clearly using their granny’s disabled badge. Do you know what I mean? I see that a lot. And I kind of go, urgh, don’t, it’s…what can you do here? This is just the way that the badge is. I don’t know, I’ve always been frustrated by the misuse of them. 

NIKKI- Yeah.

SOPHIE- But then now this is like another layer to that that I hadn’t even thought about before, actually the misuse of my own badge. Argh! I haven’t allowed myself to think about it because I’ve been so busy, but now thinking about it it’s like oh no, there are so many things I can’t do, like next week. I don’t think the wider public perhaps fully understand. For example, for me, and Nikki you’ll be the same, is the wheelchair space that you need for example, literally we cannot get out of the car, just cannot get out of the car without it. I’ve been out and somebody’s parked next to my car and I’ve been stuck, I’ve been not able to get back into my car. That space is so… There’s a nuance there that I think makes it impactful for so many of us in so many different ways, I just wonder if non-disabled people fully get why it’s needed and respect it a little bit more. 

NIKKI- Yeah. I think a non-disabled friend of mine was actually very shocked recently when we were trying to park somewhere and I couldn’t go in one of those private car parks because often you think they’ve got so many spaces, but actually a lot of them don’t have the wider bay. And I can’t get out of my car if I can’t put my scooter right by the door. For our listeners we’re talking a lot about Blue Badges, aren’t we, and obviously a lot of people know what Blue Badges are, we talk about it all the time. But I’m going to task Emma with something, all right. This could take all day and get extremely dry. So, I’m going to give you, Emma, 30 seconds to answer. 

EMMA- 30 seconds!

NIKKI- 30 seconds to give us a lowdown on the Blue Badge. Your 30 seconds starts now. Go. 

EMMA- [Music counting down] It’s a laminated bit of paper with a passport photo on the back, and it allows you to park close to where you need to go and in spaces that are supposed to be wide enough for what you need. Sometimes you can park for free. You can get exempt from the London congestion charge. They’re attached to the person or organisation, not the car. Some people are automatically eligible, some need to be assessed. You have to apply for it through your council. And it’s valid for up to three years. 

NIKKI- Woo-hoo!

EMMA- Is that 30 seconds? 

NIKKI- Oh Em, I think you came in shorter actually. I think that was miraculous. 

EMMA- Okay, well I’ll tell that they weren’t always blue. They used to be orange.

SOPHIE- No way?

NIKKI- Oh yeah, no, I do remember that. And I’m about 100 years old. 

EMMA- The older members of the team inform me that it used to be orange. Nikki and Sophie, you have a very tangible reason for requiring a Blue Badge, and a very obvious reason, and the reason the Blue Badge was started in the first place probably: the wheelchair user reason. But it’s been extended to a lot more people with disabilities that you can’t see, neurological conditions. 

NIKKI- So, Em, why are they stolen? I mean, we’ve touched on it there with Sophie. But is it to avoid the congestion charge tax or is it just to resell them? 

EMMA- The Blue Badge can save them up to £6,000 a year in London because of the congestion charge. And yeah, it’s better parking; it’s parking closer to where you need to be, I guess. I think some people only hang out with me for my Blue Badge honestly. It’s seen as a passport to just parking anywhere you darn well like. 

SOPHIE- But as we all know, it’s so not the case, isn’t it?

EMMA- Yeah. And some of the parking spaces are timed as well. 

NIKKI- Yeah, four hours.

EMMA- You get this weird little clock thing with your badge, don’t you, where you put it to the time that you’ve arrived so that when the warden comes along they can see how long you’ve been there. So, you can’t just park for as long as you want either. 

NIKKI- No, I’m a bit naughty with my clock actually. Sometimes I’m like, huh. In your research, Ems, have you got any tips on how this can be stopped? 

EMMA- Well, I was looking at the comments under Sophie’s Instagram post about this, and Mick Scarlett, who’s been on the podcast before, was saying that his badge was stolen four times in quick succession, and now he padlocks it to the steering wheel. And I was like really, how does that work? But actually on the internet there are loads of badge protectors, like scary big metal lock things with a Perspex cover that you can get in the regular shops that do bikes and stuff, Halfords and others, and they’ll put them in for you, and then they padlock it to your steering wheel. So, that’s a way of sort of encasing your badge so that it doesn’t get stolen. But also some councils have been trialling a virtual solution. 

NIKKI- Now, one council trying to modernise the system is Hackney Council in London. And here to tell us all about what’s going on is councillor Mete Coban. Now, you’re the cabinet member for energy, waste and transport. How does your virtual Blue Badge scheme work then in Hackney, Mete?

METE- So, you still have your Blue Badge, but you also have a virtual badge which you have to register it to a car. And what that enables you to do is you can essentially park within your area, in your zone, without displaying the badge. But also the badge is attached to your number plate. So, it also enables us to be able to, for example, give other exemptions to Blue Badge holders in Hackney. So, for example we’ve got like in Hackney one of the things that we’re trying to do is reduce congestion and traffic by extending bus operating times for bus lanes for example. We’re trialling out new things like school streets and the low traffic neighbourhood schemes. But one of the things that we’ve been able to do, because we’ve got the companion badge, is that we’ve been able to exempt Blue Badge holders from our low traffic neighbourhoods. 

NIKKI- This is so important. 

METE- Yeah. And so what that means is if you’re a Blue Badge holder in Hackney now your journey time to get around is way quicker than what it would have been before we had those schemes in place because we’ve got the technology. 

NIKKI- You know this companion badge as well, Mete, if say you were disabled and you had a PA or carer or somebody you work with, could you attach that companion voucher to their car if they were the ones that were driving the disabled person around? Could that work as well?

METE- So, the companion badge is limited to a vehicle, and it has to be the vehicle registered to your home address. 

NIKKI- Right okay.

METE- So, that’s one of the limitations to it. 

SOPHIE- In response to the numbers of badges being stolen, that’s why you came up with this, what kinds of numbers are we talking? How often were you seeing thefts of the badge, out of interest? 

METE- I don’t have the actual number to hand because a lot of it is kind of historic. But the amount of cases, I mean I’ve been a councillor now for about nine years, and I remember in my first couple of years before we actually progressed forward with the virtual Blue Badge, you’d be surprised the amount: maybe a couple of times a week people would reach out to me to say – and I’m a councillor, and typically people don’t go to their councillor as a first point of contact, you go to the police or you go to the council to report it – and even I was getting it a couple of times a week. Unfortunately, Hackney is a very vibrant borough in many ways, and lots of people want to come  here and shop there and go to restaurants and visit their family and friends, but at the same time because it’s such a hotspot destination it’s also very susceptible to theft. 

EMMA- And has the new scheme lowered the amount of theft that’s happened? 

METE- Yeah, you very rarely hear any case of theft. 

SOPHIE- It’s the obvious thing to do, but is there something that we don’t know? Is there a challenge? Is it costly? Is there a reason why you wouldn’t do it?

METE- No, I think it’s a cultural and an issue of willingness. It’s not like there’s extravagant financial cost attached to it or anything like that. It’s pretty simple, you’ve just got to get on and work it. And also we’re here to support other councils on their journey. We do it with other areas. I’m in other areas in transport as well, and obviously if anyone wants to reach out I’m more than happy to link them up with officers from Hackney to have a chat about it. You’ve got to make sure your councillors you’re in touch with them. It’s just a bit of campaigning activity. It’s annoying that you’ve got to even do it because it should be pretty straightforward. 

EMMA- Thank you so much. 

METE- Take care. Bye. 

SOPHIE- I just wanted to jump in here because I literally, just before we jumped on this session, I had to pay for the renewal of my badge and I’ve just had an email back to say, ‘Please be advised it may take up to 15 working days from the day that you receive an email confirming your badge has been sent for printing’. So, I’ve made my payment today; I don’t know when I’m going to get that email to say that it’s been sent for printing. And that could be…and then it’s another two weeks after that. 

NIKKI- See, I think that’s when the local authority should send you something temporary.

SOPHIE- Absolutely. 

NIKKI- To stick in your car. 

SOPHIE- Absolutely. Because somebody did say to me, why don’t you just print off a piece of paper. 

NIKKI- I’ve done that before but I got a ticket.

SOPHIE- I got a ticket as well, Nikki, so when I’d forgotten my badge. So, I’m like I’m not going to risk the cost of a ticket.

EMMA- Thank you so much, Sophie.

SOPHIE- Thank you for having me, and thanks for raising awareness of this. I think Mete, what a babe. I mean, hopefully he can go and internally change the world for us. That’s very exciting, isn’t it?

EMMA- That would be great. 

NIKKI- We’ve got an inside man!

MUSIC- Access All. 

NIKKI- A spring rollout of the COVID jab has been announced and it has caused some concern because a particular group are not included, as some families might have hoped. Now, joining me today is my wonderful, talented colleague, the BBC’s Ruth Clegg. Now, Ruth you’ve been covering this, so what is the story? 

RUTH- Yes, we have been covering this for some time. And we’re seeing in spring, so March 2023, the latest round of COVID vaccinations have been announced. And people with learning disabilities and families of those with learning disabilities are very concerned. One mum was saying to me that with her daughter, because she’s at extra risk, they really, really have come to rely on the frequency of COVID jabs. So, they had one in the autumn and she was hoping for one in the spring. And for them it means the difference between going out and about and leading a normal life or being in lockdown. When the rollout first took place back in 2020 people with learning disabilities were not eligible, they were not prioritised. 

NIKKI- Yeah, I remember that. 

RUTH- So, there was a huge outcry because there were various stats, various reports that had come out that had highlighted this group were very much at risk. So, you could be, with the figures they looked at in 202, six times more likely to die of COVID if you had a learning disability. And also the younger people, those aged between 18 and 30, were potentially 30 times more likely to die of COVID than their peers in the general population. So, you can see why there is concern from families and people with learning disabilities that actually they feel that they do need this regular COVID booster. 

NIKKI- Also we know that when it comes to health inequalities people with learning disabilities aren’t always treated as they should be in hospital. 

RUTH- Yes, I think overall the picture is I suppose if you were somebody with a learning disability you could potentially be more likely to catch COVID, because you could be living in a communal setting, or you may find it more difficult to adhere to, like in the past, mask wearing and that kind of thing. And also it is more difficult to get the kind of healthcare that you might need.

NIKKI- Yeah. now, you’ve been speaking to the JCVI, haven’t you? What have they got to say about this? 

RUTH- The JCVI, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation are the ones that advise government on this. I’ve been pushing them a bit because I’ve been trying to understand, because so many families are concerned and there’s not an awful lot of information out there when it comes to people with different conditions and how much at risk they are and how the vaccine might wain. So, I’ve been trying to get a bit more information from the JCVI of what figures they’re using and how they are coming to the decisions that they are coming to. So, they sent me some information that basically explained that people over the age of 75, the immunosuppressed, that’s children over the age of five and adults, and people in care homes are most likely to benefit from this extra additional vaccine, this one in the spring. And that’s because they’re at higher risk. Basically they look at how many people they need to vaccinate to show how effective it is to prevent people from going into hospital. So, for those over 75, 800 people would need to be vaccinated for one person to be protected. 

NIKKI- Right. 

RUTH- But for those in other clinical risk groups, like those with learning disabilities, you would need to vaccinate 7,800 people for one person to not have to go into hospital. So, they’re basically saying cost effectively wise we have to draw a line somewhere, and with this group of people being most at risk this is how we are judging it. So, it’s difficult because you can’t really allay people’s fears, but also at the same time you can say that from the work the JCVI have been doing and the figures that they have been looking at that people with learning disabilities will get the vaccine in autumn, on the annual booster circuit, and they won’t get that much benefit from having it in spring. 

NIKKI- Thank you for coming in. So, understand the families’ concerns but that’s put it all in perspective. Thank you so much, Ruth Clegg. 

RUTH- Thanks very much for having me. 

NIKKI- Let’s do this again. 

RUTH- Thank you, I’d love to. 

NIKKI- Now, on the latest episode of our sister podcast, If You Don’t Know, the lovely De-Graft interviewed Professor Jason Arday. This dude, I mean he’s amazing. He’s Cambridge University’s youngest ever black professor. But he has a truly remarkable story:

JASON- I didn’t speak until I was 11, but I had speech therapy from the age of three. I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder when I was three, so I had speech therapy from the age of three to 14. And that was seven hours a day, so quite a lot. And I didn’t learn to read and write until I was 18. 

NIKKI- Now, Jason is 39 now. It’s just such a phenomenal story, isn’t it, Em?

EMMA- Oh, it really, really is. What really struck me about that clip was that he was in speech therapy seven hours a day from three to 14. 

NIKKI- I know!

EMMA- I’m always fascinated by adults now who were in that kind of level of intensive therapy as kids and how they feel about it and everything. 

NIKKI- I did think as well, though Ems, it’s quite amazing to have got seven hours of speech therapy. 

EMMA- Yeah, I would imagine a lot of fighting happened for that. 

NIKKI- Also his mum, oh my goodness, she sounds incredible. She emigrated to the UK from Ghana and everyone told her to send her two autistic sons, because obviously Jason’s brother also has autism, back home because they said life was going to be too difficult for her in a new country anyway. He says this about his mum:

JASON- She was so innovative in the things that she did and how she used music to try and instruct or elicit speech or language out of me. Even growing up listening to Enya was a massive part of my childhood. [Enya music] My mum’s obsessed with Gaelic and Greek and Roman mythology, so there was always these things in the house to try and stimulate different ways of thinking. She couldn’t have known that it was hitting a mark. When I then learned to speak and I got more proficient in my language, particularly in my mid-teens, I kind of recited a lot of this stuff back to her, and she was kind of like, ‘All this time it was going in, when everyone told me to send you back home’. 

EMMA- But how amazing was his mum to keep plugging away and keep filling him with knowledge and interesting stuff and expecting? We always talk about expectations of disabled people, I can imagine she was in a situation where a lot of people never believed that we would be hearing Jason speaking so eloquently and being a professor at Cambridge, but she just kept plugging away. 

NIKKI- Yeah, I would say to anyone listen to If You Don’t Know, hosted by De-Graft. It is a brilliant podcast, and that interview was so, so good. And he did another one as well with the rapper at the end that I absolutely loved too. Great podcast, give it a listen. 

EMMA- Thank you for your messages this week. We are hearing your anxieties around changes to benefits and we will come back to this story as we know more. 

NIKKI- Yes, so keep getting in touch with us. You can do that by email, accessall@bbc.co.uk. 

EMMA- And we’re on Twitter @BBCAccessAll.

NIKKI- And you can drop us a voice note, come on, do it on WhatsApp. I do it all the time. Here is the number, cue Rosie:

ROSIE- 0330 123 9480.

NIKKI- London fashion week is a humungous event in the capital’s calendar, which was held in late February this year. And for the first time ever it featured a runway show which exclusively had models who were disabled. It was created by the fashion house Unhidden and it was covered in Vogue Business magazine. 

EMMA- It’s all about those fabulous adaptive clothes, isn’t it? 

NIKKI- Adaptive clothes. Now, you may have seen her on Dragon’s Den recently: Victoria Jenkins is Unhidden’s founder. And she joins us today, this time in the studio. 

EMMA- Hi Victoria. It’s really lovely to have you back with us again. You’ve been in before. You’re kind of a friend at this stage. And you design clothes for disabled people. What could people see at that fashion show?

VICTORIA- Well, actually interestingly, because of how I design, what you see is just what looks like standard clothing; but they do all have adaptations in that make them work for people with disabilities. So, any of the wheelchair users were in trousers designed for a seated position, and they’ve got like elasticated waist, they’re longer in the back rise, excesses removed. And within the pockets they all have openings for people who have tubes and catheters. The dresses all had openings for zips so people can access their stomas without taking their clothes off. 

NIKKI- So cool. 

VICTORIA- And all of the shirts have openings down the arm so that people who are going through chemo, radiotherapy, have diabetes or a pick line can access their arms without taking their clothes off. 

EMMA- That just sounds ultimately sensible. 

VICTORIA- Exactly. It should already be a thing. 

NIKKI- I love it. And we’ve got in the studio with us also – my scooter is making a terrible squeaky noise today, I’m so sorry – but we have got, she’s so beautiful, Caprice Kwai is a 21 year old model. And Caprice you have – do you mind me saying what your disability is? 

CAPRICE- Of course. 

NIKKI- Go on, you say it. 

CAPRICE- So, I have osteoarthritis, joint hypermobility and chronic pain syndrome. 

NIKKI- Now, you are the cover star alongside somebody else who I know, Shelby. 

CAPRICE- Yeah.

NIKKI- She’s amazing isn’t she, Shelby? 

CAPRICE- Yeah, amazing. 

NIKKI- And was there one other as well?

CAPRICE- Yeah, Ellie. 

NIKKI- And this is the cover star on Glamour magazine. 

CAPRICE- Yeah.

NIKKI- Now, can you describe the picture for people that won’t actually be able to actually see it? 

CAPRICE- So, the front cover I’ve got my afro hair out, it’s huge. I’m wearing green/blue eyeshadow. I’ve got my crutch, I’m leaning on it. I’ve got rings on. Yeah. 

NIKKI- So sexy.

CAPRICE- Yeah. 

NIKKI- And it’s worth mentioning as well Shelby uses her ventilator, doesn’t she?

CAPRICE- Yeah.

NIKKI- Is she wearing her ventilator in the picture? 

CAPRICE- Yeah. 

NIKKI- I love that. 

CAPRICE- Absolutely. 

NIKKI- Because I think that’s just so powerful. 

EMMA- It’s real life. 

CAPRICE- It is real life. 

EMMA- It’s real life, isn’t it? 

NIKKI- Victoria, you came on to talk about this before, because you are a friend of the podcast. But those who aren’t aware of your clothing brand, Unhidden, can you just quickly let us know how it all began? 

VICTORIA- Quickly, I’ll try, it just means I speak really fast. So, I was in hospital in 2016, one of many stays, and I was with a patient who said she couldn’t dress how she wanted to. She had two stomas after going through cancer, a line in her arm, she was there for one in her chest. And as soon as she said, I can’t dress how I want to, I suddenly thought oh yeah, that’s really obvious. And I worked in fashion anyway. I was in because I was overworking. So, I had my laptop with me, so I started looking from my bed and thought, this is so obvious, someone must be doing it. And in 2016 it was just very medical, very Teflon, wipe clean, more from the nurses’ and carers’ perspective than from the actual patient. I just had to go for it. 

NIKKI- But you’ve done it. We mentioned it at the top of the show about your catwalk show. But how did you put it all together? It’s a big, big challenge that, hey?

VICTORIA- It was. I think it helps that I’d worked backstage on other shows so I kind of knew how to do it and also how not to do it. And then because I went to New York last year and did Runway of Dreams and saw the production number that they put on, I was like okay, this is kind of what I need to do. And you realise you do have to use all day; you can’t do it like a traditional show where the models turn up, half an hour you throw them in something and chuck them down the runway. That’s not possible in this type of clothing anyway. 

EMMA- And I’m kind of interested in those quick changes of outfit. Did you have them? 

VICTORIA- No. 

EMMA- Did you have your models wearing different outfits or did each model wear one?

VICTORIA- Each model wore one, which is why there were so many. And I didn’t want there to be one model having more air time than another because they could get changed. We did actually have a hoist backstage. It just didn’t feel fair, and that’s why I thought everyone can have one go and then there’s not anyone having multiple goes. 

NIKKI- That’s such a lovely thing to think of, because I would be that slow person: ten hours later she’s got a sock on. I remember I once used to go to gym class, and by the time I’d put my little green socks on and my skirt the gym class was over. So, that was a very fair thing to do. What’s the reaction been like to the show? 

VICTORIA- Pretty good. There’s been a few people saying, is it really needed, or Twitter, the classic, the classic. No, it’s been good. It’s been a lot. People think Unhidden it looks very polished, I hope, but it’s still me, it’s a small team, so it’s been quite a lot of fielding. 

EMMA- What piece of clothing from the show are you most proud of and why? 

VICTORIA- Oh, it’s got to be the dress, the suits and the dress. So, the Prince of Wales suit that Adrian wore, and Oliver Shire who flew over from New York to be in the show, which was amazing. 

NIKKI- Oh wow. 

VICTORIA- And then the dress. Because I did the dress three ways and the suit two ways – the suit technically it’s also three ways – for people who are ambulatory, wheelchair users. And then the dress I also did for little people. But I’ve also got a collaboration with Will Perry, so we’ve got men’s tailoring for people with dwarfism and short stature. 

NIKKI- Well, Caprice Kwai, you are very much an up-and-coming model, which is really exciting. 

CAPRICE- Yeah. 

NIKKI- Can you tell us about your career so far? How did you get started? 

CAPRICE- So, god, how did I get started? Funnily enough I wasn’t actually accepting of my disability when I first became disabled, and my mum really helped me and my self-love journey and accepting my disability, my crutches. So, that was a long journey to go on. And I remember being just like ten years old, I didn’t see anyone that looked like me in magazines, black, disabled, using mobility aids, just embracing it. I just wanted to be the representation that I needed. And I came across my agency, that I’m not longer with, but I saw that they were representing people with disabilities and I was like, god yeah, I just want to join. And that’s kind of where it started. And the rest is history really, yeah. 

NIKKI- Why do you think it was so difficult accepting your disabilities when you were younger? 

CAPRICE- I think because there’s a stigma around disabilities. And just growing up in school it wasn’t, I don’t know, there’s not enough education around it. I think it’s just the stigma around using a mobility aid and, like I said, I didn’t see anyone that looks like me. I just thought it was just taboo. And it really isn’t and it shouldn’t be. 

NIKKI- Going back to the Glamour magazine, that’s a really high-profile magazine, that’s like a big deal. And we were discussing the three models, it was you, it was Ellie. Ellie Darby-Prangnell, she has SMA, spinal muscular atrophy.  Shelby Lynch who we know is a wheelchair user and a ventilator user. How did that all come about?

CAPRICE- So, I was contacted and I was basically told Glamour would like to make you an offer to be on the cover. And I was like, oh my god, that’s amazing. 

NIKKI- Obviously the fashion industry, like other industries as well, has a reputation of not being the friendliest for anyone, disabled or not really. It’s a difficult, it’s a tough one, isn’t it? 

CAPRICE- Uh-huh. 

NIKKI- How open has it been to you?

CAPRICE- It’s been okay. I feel like I’ve experienced more disability discrimination maybe in education compared to the fashion industry. Although I have had I guess circumstances with specific people in the industry where I feel like I’ve been brushed off maybe. 

NIKKI- Really? Any horror stories?

CAPRICE- Maybe not horror stories, no. But in terms of accessibility that’s always an issue, always an issue. 

NIKKI- It’s always access, isn’t it? 

CAPRICE- Yeah. 

NIKKI- What about you Victoria? 

VICTORIA- Now it’s been great, everyone has sort of been a lot nicer. Back when I was first talking about it everyone was very much like literally just doing a kind of sneer, like urgh, is it really needed. And yeah, the industry itself is very difficult. The hours are ridiculous, which was why I decided to go freelance and pursue Unhidden. Then was too busy freelancing and then recovering to actually make anything happen until, weirdly, until COVID hit. I think there’s still a lot of attitudinal change that needs to happen. But I think it’s more than just representation, which I think high fashion brands need to be doing that: they need to be hiring disabled models. But I think they also need to be hiring back of house. 

CAPRICE- Yeah. 

VICTORIA- The problem is you look at even most of the London universities are not very accessible, so if you can’t get in the door to study it, and I think that’s the problem with all these brands and their design teams: if they don’t have disabled people with lived experience they’re not going to get things right. 

NIKKI- Yeah. 

VICTORIA- But also it doesn’t feel like it’s welcoming if we can’t even get into the building to do these things. But I think it’s also down to the retailers: we need high fashion to have representation, and then we need the high street to actually do adaptive fashion. 

NIKKI- Yeah. I tell you what, I could talk about this for a very long time with you guys. I really thoroughly enjoyed that. Well done everything, everything you’ve achieved Victoria and you as well Caprice for this work. 

CAPRICE- Thank you so much. 

NIKKI- You’re both rocking it. 

Well, that’s it for another week. It’s flown by. Thank you so much for listening everyone. 

EMMA- Get in touch with us in all the usual ways. We’re on Twitter. And our WhatsApp number is 0330 123 9480. Leave us a voice note there please; we love to hear you. 

NIKKI- Yeah, want to hear your voice. But until next week goodbye. 

EMMA- Goodbye. 

[Trailer for Americast]

JUSTIN- So, Sarah, we’ve been asked to put together a trailer for Americast. What do you think we should put in? 

SARAH- Well is it too obvious to just say we’ll be covering all the bigger stories that are coming out of America?

MALE- There’s a phrase which has been bouncing around since the Trump presidency, which is LOL, Nothing Matters. And the things that would matter don’t seem to matter anymore. 

JUSTIN- I think that works but it’s, well it’s not just that, is it? We need to talk as well about the undercover voters investigation, what’s happening online, what everyone’s getting in their social media feeds. 

FEMALE- What they allow us to see is what someone who has a specific set of views or is from a specific demographic or a specific place might be seeing on their feeds. 

SARAH- And of course we’ve also got to mention all the amazing guests and experts that we have on the show helping us understand the stories. 

FEMALE- This is a great talking point for him in the court of public opinion, but it is not going to go very far in a court of law. 

JUSTIN- And Americast of course isn’t just about politics and news, is it? Can we get something in about the more cultural, the social stuff too? 

FEMALE- It kind of is in keeping with the conversations that we’re having in this country about race and colonialism and the legacy of those things. 

SARAH- Yeah, as long as you include that I think that about covers what we do. 

JUSTIN- And then all I need to say at the end is: Americast is a podcast from BBC News, and you can find it on BBC Sounds. 

SARAH- Yeah, well you have just said that.