Is ChatGPT a disability ally?

 

06th April 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 47

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

 

 

NIKKI-             Ooh, I forgot to tell you actually, my sister got these blow-up legs the other day.

EMMA-           What?!

NIKKI-             I tried them for the first time. Emma, oh.

EMMA-           Blow-up legs? Did you just say blow-up legs?

NIKKI-             Yeah. I mean, I’m sort of, I’m misrepresenting that. I have no idea what they’re actually called.

EMMA-           What are they?

NIKKI-             They’re inflatable legs. You put them on when you’re lying down. You zip them up, you put them on a setting, and they basically inflate, like you’re having your blood pressure done, and they kind of work on different parts of you. Oh, my sister, her legs are like three times smaller. Not because Rachel’s big in any way, it’s just Rachel and I get a lot of swelling, water retention, and it’s like a lymphatic – these blow-up babies, honestly.

EMMA-           Do they look medical or do they look fun?

NIKKI-             I’d probably wear them on a night out, do a Shania Twain wearing them. But no, they’re medical. They are for people that need regular lymphatic draining.

EMMA-           Oh, that’s really sexed them up for me.

NIKKI-             Yeah, that’s a bit of a downer, innit?

EMMA-           Do you have to blow them up with your mouth or does someone else, like a pump?

NIKKI-             No, you pack them in, baby, and off they go.

MUSIC-           Theme music.

NIKKI-             It’s Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. We’re here every single week with a unique and hopefully hilarious look at what life is like if you’re disabled. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-           And I’m Emma Tracey in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-             And this week, with an all-women production team, we are finally talking smear tests.

EMMA-           Woo-hoo.

NIKKI-             Hopefully busting a few myths, and finding out why they can be so hard to arrange.

EMMA-           We’ll also be meeting an author who’s managed to bring together romance, chess and arthritis into a young adult novel that I literally couldn’t put down.

NIKKI-             And we’re also going a little bit sci-fi, aren’t we, getting in on the old Chat GPT talk. I have no idea what I’ve just said. But we are going to be finding out what it all means for disabled people.

We’re on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcast from. Just search for Access All and if you like us don’t forget to subscribe, she says, with little cute voice. Shall we get on with the show, Emma?

EMMA-           Let’s do it.

NIKKI-             I’m so glad we’re covering this story today, Ems, because as you know I’ve got a bit of personal experience, and it also means I get to say my favourite word – sorry dad – vagina.

EMMA-           Well, it’s a very important subject.

NIKKI-             …and women’s problems.

EMMA-           Yes! And I feel like you’ve been waiting nearly a year for this subject to come up, and I’m delighted it has as well.

NIKKI-             I have. Literally since we started this podcast, Emma, I’ve been waiting for this subject to come up. I think I’ve pitched it in every meeting pretty much.

EMMA-           Most of them anyway.

NIKKI-             Because today we’re looking at the problems many disabled women can face when trying to access the appropriate gynaecological care. It’s a huge topic. So, today we’re going to focus primarily on cervical smears. Now, like I said, I have got some experience, some good, some bad, some downright ugly. I’ll go into all that shortly. But the wider picture is pretty shocking, isn’t it, Em?

EMMA-           Yes, it is. We’ve heard about physically disabled women not being able to have their smear tests due to lack of adapted beds, so I guess adjustable beds and with the right stirrups etc. We’ve heard of women with learning disabilities who have been afraid to undergo a smear test because of lack of information. And there are over 7 million disabled women in the UK, and the research suggests that they’re more likely to have a delayed diagnosis or to die from cervical cancer partly due to a lower screening uptake.

NIKKI-             Just not going for that smear?

EMMA-           Yeah, just not going to it, due to fear, due to the place not being set up for them, due to the information not being in an easy to read format.

NIKKI-             In 2019 Jo’s Cervical Cancer Trust carried out research of their own. It was a research project called We’re Made to Feel Invisible. Now, the research spoke to women with a physical disability about barriers to cervical screening and found that 88% of women in this group find it harder to access or attend cervical screenings. 88%! It also found 49% chose not to attend based on previous bad experience. Now, we are joined by Samantha Dixon, who is the CEO of Jo’s Cervical Cancer Trust, to help us explore this subject a bit better. Hello Samantha.

SAMANTHA-  Hello there.

NIKKI-             Thank you so much for coming on the pod to talk about this.

SAMANTHA-  Not at all. Delighted to be here.

NIKKI-             Now, for those who don’t know, what is a cervical smear?

SAMANTHA-  So, cervical screening, otherwise known as a smear test, is a test which actually helps prevent cervical cancer. And it does that by checking for a virus called high-risk HPV, human papillomavirus. So, a lot of people think it’s a test to detect cancer, but it actually is a test to prevent cervical cancer from developing in the first place, and that’s why it’s so important. And in the UK women and other people with a cervix aged between 25 and 64 are invited to cervical screening or a smear test either every three or five years, depending on where you live and your age. But some women will be invited more regularly if they need to be more closely monitored. And that isn’t something to be worried about; that’s a really good thing.

NIKKI-             So, what you’re saying, Samantha, is they’re a preventative measure really then, aren’t they, cervical smears? That’s why they’re so important.

SAMANTHA-  Absolutely. Cervical screening saves lives. And almost every case of cervical cancer, something like 99.7% of cases are caused by some strains of HPV, human papillomavirus. It’s a really common virus, and most of us will get it at some point in our lives, eight of ten of us will. I’ve probably had it and don’t even know it. And normally the body clears the virus, often with us not even knowing we’ve had it. But there are a few types of HPV that if they persist can cause cervical cells to change, which if left untreated in some cases can develop into cervical cancer. So, cervical screening means that we identify those women and other people with a cervix at higher risk of developing cervical cancer at the earliest possible stage, and then monitor or treat them.

NIKKI-             Potentially silly question alert here, Samantha. Do you get the HPV virus from having nookie-nooks?

SAMANTHA-  Well, HPV – and we’re still learning lots about it – tends to be spread by close intimate skin-to-skin contact, so it can be intercourse, but it can also just be touching and kind of things like that. But as I say, it’s very common, and we know lots of women go for their screening, are told that they HPV, and get quite worried about it. on our helpline at Jo’s we hear from lots of women who feel this is a real stigma, they don’t understand how they’ve got it. And I’d say to any women out there who do get this very common virus, if you’re worried go on the Jo’s website, because there’s lots of information that can really help you to understand it and feel better about it.

NIKKI-             Because one of the reasons why I asked that, Samantha, my sister, who won’t mind me telling you this, is physically disabled, and she went for her smear test some time ago and she wheeled in in her electric wheelchair, and the nurse just turned around to her straightaway and went, “Oh no, no. No you don’t have to come if you’ve not had sex”. It was that presumption that somebody in a wheelchair wouldn’t have actually had nookie, which was why she didn’t need a smear test. But is that technically true?

SAMANTHA-  Yeah, well that’s a misunderstanding that we need to address. So, you referred earlier to the research that we did back in 2019, and one of the things that came out strongly there as a theme, and has also been echoed by some of the work that we’ve done with women with learning disabilities, is both being told by healthcare professionals – obviously not all – but some healthcare professionals that they don’t need to go for screening, the assumption being that they aren’t having sex or in an intimate relationship. Therefore the likelihood of them having HPV is rare, therefore they don’t need to go for screening. And that is wrong. And certainly one of the recommendations we make in our report is around making sure that anyone involved in healthcare, sample takers for instance, GPs and nurses, understand that women with a disability do need to go for screening and they need to be given the access, the wraparound support to allow them to do that.

NIKKI-             What does your research show?

SAMANTHA-  One of the biggest barriers, understandably, is GP surgeries not having adequate wheelchair access or lacking disabled parking. And nearly a quarter of the women that we spoke to said that a hoist would have been useful, but only 1% of their GPs actually provided that.

NIKKI-             That’s a good point actually. I’ve never seen a hoist, I’m sure there are, but I’ve never seen a hoist in a GP surgery before.

SAMANTHA-  Yeah. And one of the things that we would look to in these recommendations is that every GP practice reviews their policies and procedures, they make sure that they can make adjustments so that every woman can go for screening. And it might not be that every surgery needs or could afford a hoist, but actually working in a network with others so that they can refer women to a nearby surgery that does have a hoist. But also things like the Care Quality Commission actually policing this and making sure that women are being provided with that care that need locally to be able to go for screening.

And we’re really keen to see innovations like HPV self-sampling. I don’t know if any of your listeners have heard of this, but this is where a woman takes a sample themselves using a swab, which they then post off with hopefully no need to even leave their home. Now, this isn’t actually part of the screening programme at the moment, but certainly at Jo’s we’re pressing for a speedy rollout of cell sampling, once it’s safe to do so. So, it’s still in sort of pilot phase. And we know that won’t be the answer for every woman with a disability, but actually as part of a more personalised approach where healthcare providers are saying, actually what do you need to be able to go for screening, we want to try and provide that, is the way forward.

EMMA-           Nikki, have you had any trouble getting a smear test yourself?

NIKKI-             In all honesty I have. I’ve got a lovely nurse round the corner, and she really is great, but she dreads whenever I book in for a smear because the surgery isn’t hugely set up. I mean, they don’t have an adjustable bed, they don’t have stirrups; and I think stirrups would really, really help me. So, I get on the bed, she tries to shove about a thousand pillows under my butt-butt, and she does her best. But it takes such a long time. The nurse worries because it’s quite painful. And I am quite hardcore when it comes to pain, I’ve got a good pain threshold, but there’s something, I think because I’ve had so many bad smears it’s just an area that has made me go a bit sensitive now. Because I’ve got the endometriosis and I feel like I’ve been prodded enough, so I get a bit sensitive around that area. So, I’m probably a little bit of a baby as well. But a couple of pillows under the bum is not really going to enable me to get in the best position for the nurse to do her job. And she’s had so many incompletes – I think that basically means you do the swab, you send it off, and there’s enough sample on there. I’m not a medical professional – but yeah, I’ve had so many incompletes. And she said to me, I think it was the last one, “Please don’t book in with me again. Go to the hospital”.

EMMA-           So, what would make a smear test better for you? Does that self-swabbing thing sound like a goer? Could you do that?

NIKKI-             Well, I don’t know what that involves, Samantha. Is that doing the actual smear yourself or is that a sort of easier way of taking? I mean, I know nothing is definite yet.

EMMA-           I would imagine you’d have to stick a long pole with a swab on the end of it up your vagina till it gets… But how do you know when you’ve reached the right spot? My cervix is a bit tilty.

SAMANTHA-  So, as I said, this isn’t currently part of the screening programme but when it’s safe and effective to do so we hope it will be. But no, it’s not akin to a nurse taking it. It’s almost like a long cotton wool bud, and they don’t need to touch the cervix, they just need to get enough cells from the walls to be able to see whether there’s HPV on it, which is the primary test.

EMMA-           Like a COVID test but not up your nose.

NIKKI-             It’s a COVID test for the vagina.

EMMA-           Yeah, the same kit.

NIKKI-             I mean, finally Samantha, before you go, what would you like to see done to ensure that disabled women can access their cervical smear?

SAMANTHA-  I think it’s really important that women’s voices are heard. And for us there are a few things: as I said previously, that each GP practice tries to take a personalised approach to understand what it is that a woman needs to go for screening and applies that. And that that is then policed by the Care Quality Commission. When it’s safe and effective to do so, the rollout of HPV cell sampling. And training for all staff to make sure that they really understand and are empathetic about the needs of women with a disability.

NIKKI-             Thank you so much, Samantha. It’s been great talking to you about this. I think it is such an important one that we need to keep discussing, because it impacts all disabled people, physically, people with learning disabilities, the whole lot. So, thank you for coming on and talking to us on Access All.

SAMANTHA-  Not at all. Thank you very much.

 

NIKKI-             Emma, do you ever get the feeling that someone else could do your job?

EMMA-           No, no, I don’t think they could. I mean, they’d have to be full of Irish banter, and they’d also have to be a dab hand with the old braille display as well I feel. Why are you asking me this? Why are you opening up all my insecurities about my job?

NIKKI-             I wasn’t actually talking about another human, Emma. I was talking about a computer.

EMMA-           Are you talking about some sort of smart techy thing?

NIKKI-             I am, because have you seen the articles this weekend? It’s about this much-mentioned Chat GPT-4. Apparently it evaded one of those capture tests. Now, they’re those quizzes you know that they ask you how many traffic cones are in the picture.

EMMA-           Well, try doing them if you can’t see, Nicola.

NIKKI-             How do you do them if you can’t see?

EMMA-           You get an audio version, which is sort of a load of static with some words popping out, some random words, and you have to listen really carefully and then remember seven words to put into the typing bit. So, anyway, so this Chat GPT-4 thing?

NIKKI-             That article over the weekend, did you see it?

EMMA-           Yes, I did. I read it in The Sun. And basically Chat GPT-4 hired someone to solve a capture. And the human said, ‘Why do you want me to do this job? You’re not a robot are you?’ And Chat GPT-4 said, ‘No, I’m not a robot, I’m visually impaired’. So, it looks like this AI tool pulled out the disability card to get out of doing something.

NIKKI-             So many questions! You know who we need?

EMMA-           Who do we need? Who are we going to call?

NIKKI-             He’s one of my favourites. He’s like the superstar tech reporter. It’s only Paul Carter from BBC Click.

PAUL-             Hello.

NIKKI-             Hello Paul.

EMMA-           Hi.

PAUL-             How are you doing?

NIKKI-             Good. How are you, darling, are you all right?

PAUL-             All the better for being back with you lovely people on here.

EMMA-           Did you understand any of that, Paul?

PAUL-             I did.

NIKKI-             I’m going to have to take this slower, right. So, let’s start off with this question: what is a Chat GPT? Is that the thing that’s the artificial intelligence?

PAUL-             In a sense, yes. So, basically Chat GPT is a chatbot. And you’ll probably be aware of chatbots if you’ve ever gone onto your mobile phone provider’s website or a retailer or anything and you’ve needed any sort of customer service, and you get the little thing pop up in the corner and it says, ‘How can I help you?’ and it’s usually really rubbish, right, and it can’t find your account information, all of that. Well, Chat GPT is basically one of them but times a million. It’s got a huge amount of intelligence and resources behind it. I won’t get too technical, but it’s based on what’s called a large language model. It essentially can go and use everything on the internet from 2021 backwards to go and kind of research things and present it to you in a way that makes sense and sounds like it’s a person.

NIKKI-             Really? It could go back on the internet and get enough information to basically play the disabled card?

PAUL-             Yeah. I mean, it’s essentially been trained on absolutely vast quantities of information and words and knowledge. I think it’s important to remember it’s not alive, it’s not sentient, it doesn’t have feelings, it’s not doing any of this out of spite or malice; it’s just presenting words in a way that make it sound kind of human. But it does have that ability to kind of learn and understand context.

EMMA-           And it can do stuff around pictures, can’t it? I mean, there’s a new blindy tool coming along called Virtual Volunteer Tool, which is one of those video call, nice sighted volunteer people being kind to blind people and spending a couple of minutes of their day helping me to use my pressure cooker buttons. But this virtual volunteer means you would cut out the person apparently, because you could show it a picture and then it would tell you all the information about the picture; which suggests to me that it’s not visually impaired at all, Paul.

PAUL-             Well, that’s the thing; Chat GBT it uses AI, but it’s only little version of AI. AI can be lots and lots of things, and one of which is image recognition and machine learning, which touches on what you’ve just mentioned there. Look, there’s a lot being kind of written and said about AI, how it’s going to steal everyone’s jobs and it’s going to be the end of the world and everything else, but I actually think for disabled people in particular it could potentially have some really useful applications. You’ve just touched on one there, Emma.

EMMA-           Yeah. And are there any other impairments that it could help with make our lives a bit easier? What can it do for Nikki, say? So, Nikki’s dyslexic; what do you think it could do for her?

PAUL-             Well, I think things like chatbots, like Chat GBT and there’s also Bard as well, which is Google’s version, because they are so good with language and language processing – that’s kind of what they’re built on really – anything that affects people’s ability to use language effectively or efficiently can be improved by this. Because you can essentially go to Chat GBT and say, ‘This is all the information about me, can you write me a CV?’ and it will be able to do that. Even for people with learning difficulties being able to break stuff down and rewritten in a more kind of understandable and digestible way, these are all applications that it could have. But it needs someone to take them on and actually develop them and make them happen.

NIKKI-             You see, that would have changed my life at school that. I always think now if I’d gone through school not in the 1980s and 1990s I would have done better because I have kind of learnt a lot as I’ve got older and it has been down to computers. We’re responsible journalists, aren’t we, Ems?

EMMA-           We are.

NIKKI-             We wanted to give Chat GBT-4 its chance to explain itself. It’s like it’s very own right of reply. So, we reached out and we sent it a couple of questions.

EMMA-           Right, so we asked: why did Chat GBT-4 pretend to be blind to avoid answering a question about images? And it said:

CHATBOT-     I apologise if there was any confusion or miscommunication, but as an AI language model I do not have the ability to see or perceive images in the same way as humans do, therefore I cannot provide visual descriptions or interpretations of images. If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to ask me, and I will do my best to provide a helpful response.

EMMA-           Why did it say that, Paul, do you think?

PAUL-             It needed to give a reason to get the person to do what he was asking. And I would imagine that, ‘Well I can’t see the capture’ was probably the most common reason why people aren’t able to do captures. So, I suspect that that’s why it went down that path.

EMMA-           So, it just pulled out the easiest reason. So, when I’m asked to do a capture, how many traffic lights are in this grid, just below that it’ll say, if you’re visually impaired here’s an audio version. So, that is the most common reason why you wouldn’t be able to do the capture is because you can’t see it. So, the chatbot wasn’t being that clever; it just looked on capture sites, saw that there were audio versions and that they were for blind people and said, ‘I can’t do the visual version because I’m visually impaired’. So, that kind of makes sense, doesn’t it?

PAUL-             Yeah, it’s exactly that. At the end of the day a chatbot doesn’t have any more capacity to understand what being sneaky is than a fork has to understand what it is to be hungry.

NIKKI-             I think it was doing what I used to do back in 1995 onwards, and just try and get out of something by saying, ‘I can’t, I’m disabled’.

PAUL-             [Laughs]

EMMA-           Paul, could Chat GBT actually be a disability ally?

PAUL-             I think it could be. I mean, as with all these things, there’s never any kind of really clearcut answer. But I think it really has the potential to be, if it’s used in the right way, and it’s developed in the right way, and applications for the tech are developed with disabled people, as we always say, and it’s used in a way that doesn’t exclude us. So, I think it really has the potential to be an ally, but it is that word potential. It’s one of those things that won’t ever properly catch on until people actually find an application for it. It’s an amazing solution without a problem at the moment, and I think that’s what the next stage is.

NIKKI-             You see, I still don’t know whether I’m impressed or absolutely terrified.

PAUL-             I mean, it sounds more accessible than a lot of physical venues I’ve been into.

NIKKI-             It really does, doesn’t it? You’re not wrong. You are not wrong.

MUSIC-           Access All.

NIKKI-             Now, do you remember the phenomenon that was The Queen’s Gambit?

CLIP-               I want to know what that is you’re playing.

NIKKI-             During lockdown I rinsed the lot of them. It was a story all about chess. Well, this is amazing, our next guest has combined chess, romance and – and I never thought I’d say this – arthritis, to create one of the hottest young adult debut novels, set to hit the bookshops soon. And it’s called The First Move. I’m so excited to say this, welcome to Access All, it’s Jenny Ireland. Hello Jenny.

JENNY-           Hi, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited.

NIKKI-             Oh, it’s brilliant, chess, romance and arthritis, honestly it’s a killer, you’ve got me hooked immediately. Now, your book is out next week, isn’t it? How are you feeling about it all?

JENNY-           I am really excited, but I’m also really nervous. I didn’t expect to be this nervous, but there we go.

NIKKI-             What is it you’re nervous about? Is it just audience reaction? I guess there’s probably lots of things.

JENNY-           I’m also excited, so that’s a good thing.

NIKKI-             Now, I teased the audience there, didn’t I, by saying that the book combines chess, romance and arthritis. So, why don’t you tell us a bit more about the book? Make that make sense.

JENNY-           The First Move is a teen romance, and it follows two protagonists, Juliet and Ronan. Juliet lives with inflammatory arthritis and is very cynical about love. Ronan has a huge secret that he cannot deal with, never mind talk about. And they both use playing chess online anonymously as a means of escapism, which eventually spills over into real life.

NIKKI-             Because they don’t know that they’ve actually made contact with each other, do they?

JENNY-           No, no. So, they have this whole relationship online, so like getting to know each other, and they have no idea. And then they go to the same school.

NIKKI-             I’m a sucker for a romance.

EMMA-           It’s a bit like Dash & Lily. Have you ever seen Dash & Lily?

NIKKI-             No.

EMMA-           It was a Netflix thing a couple of Christmases ago about two  young people who meet online. I mean, it’s not at all like that, but it’s got that kind of exciting suspense and cuteness and struggles. I love it.

NIKKI-             I love it too. Now, for the audience that don’t know, Jenny, you’ve dealt with a lot of medical stuff yourself, haven’t you? First arthritis and then encephalitis.

JENNY-           Yes.

NIKKI-             Obviously the leading lady in your book, Juliet as you mentioned, also has arthritis. She has it as a teenager. And you were diagnosed in your early 20s, weren’t you? What were the first signs for you?

JENNY-           The first real signs were swellings in my knees. My knees will fill up with a lot of fluid. And looking back I had other signs, like pain in my neck and things like that. So, it wasn’t until I was home from university and the worst couple of years, and then it was back and forth to the doctors to try and get a diagnosis.

NIKKI-             The character, Juliet, in the book struggles, doesn’t she, to come to terms with having the condition. Was that the same for you or were you pretty okay? Because there is an age difference there obviously.

JENNY-           My dad was a doctor, he’s retired now, so it wasn’t a huge shock when I got diagnosed. I think the word must have been thrown about a few times, so it wasn’t. And I had a really good support network, and it just wasn’t a huge shock. But it was actually after all the brain surgery and things like that I thought as a teenager having these things must be horrific. And you’re so self-conscious, and really what would these things be like to have as a teenager.

EMMA-           Yeah, and actually what’s interesting is that’s what really touched nerves with me was that teenage disabledness, the being left out of stuff, either consciously or subconsciously, and the difference in your parents’ life because you’re disabled. I felt like you really hit the nail on the head there, so I was very surprised to hear that you were diagnosed in your 20s and it wasn’t your story and your feelings and everything.

JENNY-           It was more that I was so self-conscious as a teenager, just as most teenagers are, so it was just adding that in. I think any teenager who goes into school with something extra, anything extra, is a hero, because it’s so difficult as it is, never mind adding disability or anything onto that.

NIKKI-             I always say to Emma, and she’s like, “Don’t Nikki, don’t, enough of the hair” but I was like this little Weeble that used to wobble around school trying not to fall over. Incredibly hairy at the same time, crooked teeth and well, acne, it was quite horrific. I deserve  a medal Jenny quite honestly.

JENNY-           It’s so difficult being a teenager. And I still have all these feelings from being a teenager, just like heartbreak and self-conscious everything. It’s so much harder with anything else.

NIKKI-             How did you get into the writing then. How did this all happen?

JENNY-           I didn’t write until I had kids. It was actually after my son was born, my second child. And I think I went mad from my sleep deprivation, and I was like, I’m going to write a story, I’m just going to write a story. And then I loved it, I absolutely loved it and got completely hooked.

NIKKI-             I love that. Mind you, you’ve had two kids, you’ve already got quite a lot on your plate and that’s when you start writing. And I wonder how you balance that, because obviously I was reading you do have to deal with fatigue, don’t you, and you like an early night, which I love an early night. A blanket and a hot water bottle early night, hello.

JENNY-           Oh yeah.

NIKKI-             But how do you balance all of that with the writing, with the kids, with the stuff that you also have to manage?

JENNY-           Well, when I’m writing I get up really early. I’ll get up at five and I’ll just write for two hours in bed. I’ve always been a morning person so it really works for me, and it works round the kids. Then by about 7 o’clock my brain doesn’t work anymore so I’m just watching whatever on TV. But I get all my writing done.

EMMA-           That’s so organised. You mentioned having two children; how did your body react to that? Because I know arthritis changes depending on lots of different factors.

JENNY-           Yeah, well when I was pregnant I basically felt no pain at all. It was like a weird miracle cure. And then sort of six weeks after the birth it was a huge flare-up, just like I’m back.

EMMA-           That’s so interesting. That’s fascinating.

JENNY-           I mean, it must be something to do with hormones, I don’t know. But I think it happens for quite a lot of people, so there is something. I don’t know.

EMMA-           So, hang on a second, let me get this straight, you were at home with your kids in a pandemic writing what’s going to be a bestseller?

NIKKI-             Yeah.

JENNY-           Let’s hope. It’s a teen romance anyway.

NIKKI-             Would it be a good time though for you to read a little excerpt of the book, to give our listeners a kind of tease to what they’ve got in store?

JENNY-           Yeah.

NIKKI-             Go on, Jenny.

JENNY-           [Reading] There should be a disclaimer at the beginning of teen movies: content warning, real life is nothing like this. We accept no liability whatsoever for the unrealistic expectations that will arise from watching this film. Your discretion is advised. Seems fair. People should be warned that the whole guy meets girl, they hate each other, or pretend to, get forced together and bang, they fall in love thing is total [muffled]. And yeah, I know it’s fiction, but none of this stuff is real, but I still get sucked in every single time. I even get butterflies when they stare at each other the way I stare at my hot water bottle and painkillers after a day of too much standing up. Real life is the doctor handing you two disgusting grey crutches and telling you that you’ll need to use a walking aid for the foreseeable future. Real life is staring at yourself in the mirror and trying not to despise your new reflection.

NIKKI-             That was amazing.

EMMA-           Yay.

NIKKI-             Oh, that was brilliant, Jenny. And your voice as well, you’ve got such a beautiful accent.

JENNY-           Oh, thank you.

EMMA-           Was this your first disabled character, Jenny?

JENNY-           It is actually, yeah. I didn’t set out to write a disability book or a disabled book. It’s just a love story and she just happens to have arthritis.

NIKKI-             I love this.

JENNY-           That’s the way it should be.

NIKKI-             Thank you so much for listening today. It’s been a right good podcast. Well, we’re going to be back next week, but if you want to get in touch before then, email us on accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or you can find us on Twitter.

EMMA-           You can also leave us a voice note on this number, it’s 0330 123 9480. You can also subscribe to us, please subscribe and tell everyone else you know to subscribe, on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts from.

JENNY-           Have a lovely Easter, if that’s what you're doing. I’ve just been told I’ve got a chocolate cow to eat, not a bunny. Goodbye everyone.

EMMA-           Bye.