Magic money

NIKKI- I’m going to that gym that I told you about. So, it’s that guy that I met when I walked in an exoskeleton for 5 Live years ago, donkeys years ago, he was lovely, called Tom. And he’s part of this gym now, FIM Healthcare they’re called, and he set it up just for disabled people. Oh, I’m probably more excited about this than I’ve been excited about most things. 

EMMA- Are you excited about the fancy gym gear? Or are you excited about the hot men in the gym? Or are you excited about doing some exercise? Which never excites me very much, but whatever fills your boat.

NIKKI- Well, two things, Em: I really am excited about buying my very first pair of gym leggings and bralette. I’m really excited. I’m just going to go on all the online websites and like, what do sporty girls wear and I’m just going to copy it. I can’t wait. I’m going to put my hair in a plait.

EMMA- What about the shoes?

NIKKI- The shoes I can do nothing about. It’s going to have to be the boots and splints.

EMMA- Okay.

NIKKI- But them’s the breaks, them’s the breaks. How do I style my hair? Do I put plaits on my head? What do I do? It can’t get in the way. 

EMMA- How do you style your hair? You’re going to have sweat dripping down. 

NIKKI- No, get it out the way.

EMMA- Is it more like a hospital gym, so is it more like physio?

NIKKI- No.

EMMA- Or are you actually going to be like, lift more weights! Walk faster! Run, run, come on I know you can do it, do it, do it, do it, do it!?

NIKKI- No, do you know what, he has got the exoskeleton that I walked in. Now, with muscular dystrophy I do get weaker and it does happen quite slowly, but I have these moments in my life where things stop. Like I stopped being able to walk independently into my shower about four years ago. But just these little things that if I do lose it I will lose it forever. And I haven’t got that much left to lose. Maybe if I can just go once a month or once every two months, stand in an exoskeleton so I’m not like…now when I stand I feel like I just want to fold into a little z-bed because I’m always sat down, I’m always in that seated position and everything gets really tight. So, just standing in an exoskeleton for 20, 30 minutes – if I can do it; I might not be able to do it, we’ll see – is going to be a huge thing. It’s not because I dream of walking again. I’ve said to you this before loads of times, I’d love to dance and I’d love to go for a run, and I’d love me and you to go wild swimming together, but them days have gone. But I do like keeping fit. Because if you sit down all the time that’s fine, but you can still feel unfit. I can feel better sat down if I’ve done some exercise. Things don’t hurt as much. 

MUSIC- Theme music.

NIKKI- Hello, it’s Nikki Fox in the BBC studios here in London. 

EMMA- And in Edinburgh it’s Emma Tracey.

NIKKI- You might have stumbled across Access All by accident. Who knows? We’re the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. If you have, thank you. Put your PJs on and stick around. 

EMMA- Now, let me give you a few key words from this week to kind of whet your appetite, get you listening: magic…

NIKKI- Love it. 

EMMA- …money and darkness.

NIKKI- And this is why you need to tell your friends about this podcast, wherever they are in the world they need to go to BBC Sounds, search for Access All and subscribe to us, and then each new addition is just going to drop onto your phone. 

Emma, do you pay for stuff contactless or do you pay with cold hard cash?

EMMA- I tend to pay with contactless because I find cash has been historically tricky for me. Cash used to be obviously paper; it’s now plastic. It used to not have markings on it; whereas now it’s plastic and it has got little markings for five, ten and 20. So, it’s got a little set of four dots for five, two sets of four dots for ten and three sets of four dots for 20 in the corner. So, I can know which note is which. But I still personally find contactless or chip and PIN easier. Apart from when chip and PIN machines are touchscreen, and then the rage bubbles up in me and I have to get someone else to do my PIN, and I have to tell someone else my PIN, and it makes me very sad. What about you? 

NIKKI- I hadn’t thought about that actually. Contactless is good because you’re not bunging someone a 50 quid by accident.

EMMA- Well, yeah, I’m not giving people the wrong money, that’s a real one. And also getting money out of ATM machines used to be really, really scary for me because obviously I didn’t know if there was someone behind me. I was always worried about the kind of crime aspect of that. What about you, do you pay with contactless or cash?

NIKKI- Well, I try not to carry a lot of money with me because it’s just easier not have like tons of bags or whatever, so I tend to just pay by card. But I do miss having cash because particularly as well I drive a lot, and you know when you stop at the street you’ll see somebody that’s potentially homeless or whatever and I always like to give a bit of money. And lately I’ve noticed that I never, ever, ever, ever have any cash on me, ever. So, I’m going to start getting in the habit of having a little pot of cash.

EMMA- They’re not making as much money as they used to. They’re not making as many notes, are they?

NIKKI- No, they’re not. This week the people who produce banknotes for countries around the world, that’s De La Rue  - De La Rue sounds great, doesn’t it? – it said demand for notes is at its lowest level for over 20 years. So, I’m wondering how close are we to becoming a totally cashless society? And will this leave some of us behind obviously? Because you think about all kinds of disabilities and the differences that we have and the things that we might potentially struggle with, so we’re going to chat this through. Now, with us today we’ve got Wayne Crocker. Now, Wayne is the director of Mencap Cymru. Now, Mencap supports lots of people who can only use cash. We also have Myf with us who has a learning disability, and is supported today by her mum, Lyn. Also we’ve got on the line with us Natalie Seeney. Now, Natalie chaired the Access to Cash Review which looked at what our cash requirements will be over the next ten to 15 years. So, we’ve got the whole lot on here; we’re going to have a great old chat. 

EMMA- The whole gambit. 

NIKKI- Yeah, I love it. I’m going to start with you, Natalie, because it does feel like some banks, businesses and even consumers are in a hurry to ditch cash as an option. Why is that? 

NATALIE- Our use of cash in the UK has gone down dramatically in the last ten years. So, ten years ago about six out of every ten transactions were cash. It’s now fewer than two out of ten. 

NIKKI- Wow. 

NATALIE- I mean, this discussion is showing some of the reasons why. Contactless can be really easy, you don’t want to carry lots of notes around. Actually a lot of people feel quite vulnerable if they’re carrying a lot of cash. And for shops often it’s easier to not have to cash up at night and worry about security overnight. So, you can see why for an awful lot of people digital is very attractive. The problem is it doesn’t work for everybody. 

NIKKI- No, it doesn’t. And I was going to come to you, Wayne, because obviously you support people with learning disabilities specifically. Why do some people with learning disabilities struggle? 

WAYNE- One of the good things about my job is I get to travel around Wales and talk to people with a learning disability, people that we support, people who are in our group networks like Myf. And lots of people are telling us that they were struggling because they were going into places to try and buy things, but because of the way that their financial set-ups work they don’t have access to debit or credit cards. So, either the banks don’t believe they have the capacity to manage those sorts of accounts, or actually the financial guardianships that exist mean that those individuals are given ATM cards where they withdraw cash, they may get £20, £30 every few days, and they withdraw that cash and then they use the cash. And what people were telling us was actually they are really struggling now to find places which accept cash. So, we’ve heard lots of stories of people who have gone into shops attached to rugby teams where they’ve tried to spend their birthday money on buying a new rugby shirt and been told that they can’t do that; people who have gone into restaurants to buy their mother an evening meal and been turned away because they only have cash.

NIKKI- Oh.

WAYNE- So, we thought this is really unfair. And actually we’re discovering more and more of these things happening. So, we essentially set up a petition at the Senedd, so there’s a petitions committee at the Senedd, which is the Welsh parliament, to ask the Welsh government to look at why this is happening. And specifically to look at the organisations that get funding from the Welsh government, because there are lots of organisations like theatre groups and arts venues and sporting venues which will get money from Welsh government, but they’re excluding people with a learning disability by not allowing them to use cash in their venues. 

NIKKI- Myf, do you struggle with card?

MYF- Yes, I do. I find you’re having to go to the cash machine all the time and get balances and things, so I find it’s easier to use cash. 

EMMA- And have you had problems with cards in the past? Is that why you now take cash out every week?

MYF- Yes, yes I do. I have a set amount, because with my autism I have a job at budgeting. But my mum has taught me how to budget very well and things, and I’m a lot better at it now. 

EMMA- So, you went to an event, didn’t you, and you didn’t know that they didn’t take cash. 

MYF- No. 

EMMA- How did you manage? What happened? 

MYF- What happened was since I had some bottles of water with me on Tuesday, and I went down thinking I could get myself a cup of coffee and a cup of tea midmorning, but they told me it was card only, not cash. But I didn’t have a bank card on me so I wasn’t able to get a cup of tea at all, which I felt was a bit unfair. 

NIKKI- It’s just a bit rubbish, isn’t it, Myf…

MYF- Yeah.

NIKKI- …when you just want to do something like get a cuppa, don’t you? Natalie, you know when you were looking at our cash needs as a country what were the main things that stood out to you when it comes to people with learning disabilities or just disabled people in general? 

NATALIE- The big finding was that we mustn’t rush into a cashless society without thinking about how to look after the 8 million people who really need cash. And if I turn to what Wayne was saying, I’m delighted you’re doing what you are doing with the Welsh government, it’s being, exactly this issue is being debated in parliament at the moment UK wide. And the debate at the moment has focused mostly on people getting cash out of ATMs or getting cash out of banks. There’s not been enough focus on people’s ability to spend cash. 

MYF- Yes.

NATALIE- And too many shops, too many councils are making decisions to stop accepting cash without any understanding of the implications on the most vulnerable in society. I think this comes under the Disability Discrimination Act; if we’re going to look after vulnerable people they have to be able to access services the way that suits them, and for many people that’s cash. 

NIKKI- But then, guys, is cash the only answer or there are any like high-tech fancy-pants solutions? 

NATALIE- There are technical solutions. The problem is that the 8 million people we’re talking about are largely not financially very well off and commercially attractive. So, people aren’t developing the solutions for them. But if I give some examples: if any of your listeners have got kids there are now a multitude of cards, GoHenry is the best known one, where parents can let a child go and spend money on a card but it’s their bank account and they can keep control and they can see what’s happening. Now, I’ve been talking to those companies for about four years to say, why don’t you bring something out for adults, whether it’s an adult with learning disabilities or, say, someone with dementia, where a carer can allow them a card but keep an element of control. And the answer is there isn’t any money in it. In China where there’s low levels of literacy biometrics, you know, we open our phones with our face, biometrics mean that you can pay for a meal by smiling. 

NIKKI- I love that, I love that. 

NATALIE- It’s brilliant. The tech is all out there but they need to make sure it meets the needs of the most vulnerable in society. And at the moment they’re not commercially attractive enough to everyone, and that’s the big problem. 

WAYNE- I think there’s also an issue around actually the safeguarding. So, people who live in supported living services there are very strict rules around how that person is supported with their money. So, when people have a cash tin and the money is essentially looked at every week, so you make sure, I think reconciled is the word that they use, that the money you say you’ve spent and the receipts you’ve got is what’s left in the tin. If you go using an account actually that means somebody else has the ability to go into your bank account. And I think that takes away your power as an individual because somebody else basically has your passwords and can go into your bank account. They will need to reconcile every week how much money you’ve spent because these safeguarding authorities will want to check that you’re not being financially abused. 

NATALIE- There is tech that could be managed to support that situation. But in the meantime we do need to keep cash alive and viable for people who need it. 

NIKKI- Until there’s a better solution. 

MYF- I find with my mum looking after my card for me I can get out a set amount of money for the week, which I know will last me. But I felt that if I was anywhere else I probably wouldn’t really get that chance. 

NIKKI- Thank you so much everyone. That’s been such an interesting chat. I do think a lot of disabled people would say that they have to trust a lot more, wouldn’t you say Emma? Whether that be trust in the help from somebody else or trust in giving your card to somebody else. 

EMMA- Yes, such a weird thing handing over your card with all your money in it. 

NIKKI- I know. Such an interesting chat, so thank you so much Wayne, thank you Myf, and thank you Natalie. 

MUSIC- Access All.

NIKKI- Em, we had some really great feedback actually to last week’s episode; we were talking about how hard it can be for some disabled women to access cervical smear tests. 

EMMA- I’m really glad we had feedback because it felt like a really important subject, and it’s something that we’ve been hearing from disabled women for years and years, so I’m glad you were able to get in touch with us. 

NIKKI- Sarah sent us a tweet and said, ‘I had to fight for a referral to go to the hospital for my smear test, which has an adaptable chair and bed. I had to wait four years in total due to a pause on referrals due to the pandemic. And my appointment is not until October due to the backlog. It’s not right or fair at all’. So, Sarah’s done what I have to do, which is not go for the smear at the local doctors surgery but to try and get one at the hospital because they’ve got the adjustable beds and everything you need to make the smear possible; 

EMMA- And waiting for four years…

NIKKI- Wow.

EMMA- …feels unsafe. 

NIKKI- You have to have them every five years, don’t you? I mean, she’s going to be so behind. 

EMMA- Well, a lot of things can happen in your body in four years. Who else has to wait that long for a simple smear test?

NIKKI- Yeah, Sarah, I’m so sorry. Thank you so much for getting in touch. But do keep us updated as to when you get it. You’ve got it in October so hopefully that goes well. I hope that doesn’t get changed or moved. But it might be worth you trying to fight for an earlier one, you know.

EMMA- Maybe give them a ring and see if they can fit you in somewhere. If you can bear the additional disability admin. 

NIKKI- Yeah. 

EMMA- Alex has been in touch. Hi Alex. Alex says that their wife can’t leave the house easily and when they lived in the Netherlands in the ‘90s they were able to get a district nurse to visit on request, disability or none. 

NIKKI- That’s the dream, isn’t it? 

EMMA- That’s what you want, isn’t it? But I think we established last time that district nurses can’t actually do smear tests here. 

NIKKI- Right. And also that is presuming that you’ve got the right set-up at home, which we know a lot of people haven’t even necessarily got the right set-up at home, have they?

EMMA- It’s so complicated. 

NIKKI- It is very complicated.

EMMA- Why is everything so complicated? 

NIKKI- Why Emma, why?

EMMA- Why?

NIKKI- Okay, let’s not go there. We’re going to be keeping across this story so please do get in touch, not just about this obviously but everything, any story, anything you want us to look into. You can email us on accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can tweet us @BBCAccessAll, or you can send us a voice note – I love a voice note – WhatsApp to 0330 123 9480.

And we’ve got an update on the long-running Blue Badge ban in York. I tell you, Emma, I’ve never had so many external emails about one story as I have the Blue Badge ban. 

EMMA- Really?

NIKKI- Yeah. So, just to remind everyone, the ban which was introduced by York City Council in November 2021 was put in place so they could install anti-terror bollards to protect people from attacks. But the move was met with fierce opposition from disability activists, and a local campaign group reversed the ban, which received support from the none other than the wonderful York born Dame Judi Dench. Oh, I’d love to meet Dame Judi Dench. What is the latest on this ban, Emma?

EMMA- Well, a new study which was commissioned by the new campaign group you just mentioned has concluded that the policy is not proportionate to the threat to life from terrorist activity – that’s what they said – and that the rights of disabled people have been given insufficient weight. The report consulted city planners, counter-terrorist experts and many academics; it also said that the council’s actions depicted disabled people as a hindrance. The council has rejected the report, and in a statement given to Access All this is what they said: 

QUOTE- In making their decision in November 2021 elected council members considered the comprehensive professional report in respect of counter-terrorism measures for the city centre. 

 NIKKI- They also said:

QUOTE- The administration made a decision which it was legally entitled to make and to which no legal challenge has been made within the timeframes allowed. 

NIKKI- So, basically it’s still rumbling on, isn’t it? 

EMMA- Yup. And according to that story might be – now, I’m saying might be – that there’s been a new study that’s looked at the most accessible cities in England. Do you know what the top three are according to that study?

NIKKI- Is York in there anywhere, Emma?

EMMA- No, it’s Liverpool, Manchester, then Coventry, and York is not in the top 20. But the study was measured by the number of accessible taxis per capita. So, I suppose really, if I’m honest, comparing those two stories is like comparing apples and oranges, but I just wanted to. It’s probably pointless. 

NIKKI- I love Liverpool so I’m quite happy about that. And also Eurovision this year, that kind of bodes well. And I actually went and did some filming in Liverpool, I had to stay there for a while when I was doing this series with Greg Wallace, and I remember not having any trouble getting a taxi. 

EMMA- Really?

NIKKI- And I do struggle in London. 

EMMA- You do. 

NIKKI- No trouble at all in Liverpool. 

EMMA- You’ve got endless, endless stories of taxi waits and cold nights in the streets of London waiting for taxis. Go Liverpool! And to end, Nikki, have you heard about this new reality show on Channel 4 where celebrities have to live without light for two whole weeks?

NIKKI- I do know the show that you’re on about, Emma. And you’re going to tell me about someone that has been picked for the show, and it’s brilliant and hilarious. Tell the listeners. 

EMMA- So, you’ve got Chris Eubank, right, you’ve got Paul Gascoigne, you’ve got Scarlett Moffatt, all fully-sighted, and then you’ve got fellow blindy and friend of the show, Chris McCausland. Do you think he might have a teeny-weeny, tiny-winy advantage?

NIKKI- I thought when I read it, well surely Chris is the host of the programme. 

EMMA- No, that’s Danny Dyer. 

NIKKI- I thought he was the host. Then I was wracking my brains and I’m like, but he’s blind, but he can’t see, and he’s probably in a lot of dark a lot of the time, and I don’t understand it. 

EMMA- Being able to move around without seeing anything has to, has to, has to put you at an advantage. So, they’re going to film the celebrities with infrared cameras. I think they’ve already done it because there’s a trailer already. And they’re stumbling around this warehouse and they’re performing tasks and challenges. And I’m pretty sure there’s been snakes involved. Apparently there’s a picture of Paul Gascoigne walking into a cupboard door. No offence, Chris, I mean I think you’re brilliant, but I hope someone else wins just for the craic. 

NIKKI- Yeah, I agree with you. You kind of want it to be Eubank or Gazza or Scarlet, don’t you? 

EMMA- Yeah, well Gazza was interviewed about it the other day and he said it had helped him conquer a lot of his fears and stuff, so maybe it’s been really good for some of them. 

NIKKI- Hmm. 

EMMA- Hmm.

NIKKI- Lovely, lovely. Well, we’ll watch that, Ems.

EMMA- Got to tune in. 

NIKKI- [Singing] got to tune in. Our next guest is a bit of a new one for me; ladies and gentleman, we are talking to Fergus Flanagan. Now, Fergus is a magician, and he’s not just any magician, who knew? He’s a Bafta award winning magician, part of the Magic Circle, which I can’t tell you how excited I am. For me, Fergus, that’s a bit like the Avengers but for magic. It’s so exciting. And you’re also holder of the Virtual Magician of the Year. Thank you so much for coming in. 

FERGUS- My absolute pleasure. It all goes downhill from here.  

NIKKI- No, it doesn’t. 

FERGUS- The intro’s the best bit about me. 

NIKKI- Did you like it? 

FERGUS- It was great.

NIKKI- I mean, I could go on because you’ve got tons to your name. I mean, we couldn’t write it; we’d be here all day. Now, let’s start with the fact that I hear you are a mind reader and you’re going to read my mind later, aren’t you? 

FERGUS- Well, I’m going to try certainly, yeah. I think before we go any further if I can get you to think of a word in your head.

NIKKI- Right okay. 

FERGUS- Now, of course this could be any word that you like. Do you have something? 

NIKKI- Yes.

FERGUS- Good. So, I just want you to hold that in your head and through the course of my time on the show I’m going to hopefully, maybe not get exactly what that is, but get close to what that word is. So, try not to give anything away, your very best poker face, but during the course of my time here I will hopefully get some resemblance of that word. 

NIKKI- Let’s start from the beginning. When did you first decide that you wanted to be a magician?

FERGUS- So, when I was about ten years old my friend Jeremy, who lived on my road, showed me a coin trick. It was a very simple coin trick where he made it look like he was sort of vanishing an object. 

NIKKI- Ah! Oh my goodness, Fergus, this is mind-blowing. Oh my goodness. So, Emma, Fergus just got his AirPods out and he put one in his hand and it just disappeared. 

EMMA- I don’t believe you. 

FERGUS- Not the best for radio that. 

NIKKI- I know, but he actually did do that. 

EMMA- It’s a trick, isn’t it, a trick of the hand or something? 

NIKKI- How did you do that?

FERGUS- Well, that’s exactly it, Emma. I was so astonished as soon as I saw the trick. And then I found that it was this very mechanical process that had made the coin in this instance vanish. And I think the sort of synergy of feeling that amazement and then realising it was something so mechanical that made you feel that way was hugely appealing. I wasn’t quite that pretentious at ten years old, but I think somewhere in my subconscious that was the appeal. 

NIKKI- Where did that AirPod go? 

FERGUS- Back in the case. 

NIKKI- No! It isn’t back in the case? No, it’s back in the case! Oh my goodness! You see, I love this. This is the best recording day ever. 

EMMA- So, you’ve got OCD, don’t you? How has that kind of fed into being a magician, and how does that show up for in general? 

FERGUS- When I’m actually performing that’s when I find I tend to be out of my head. But it’s the interim, it’s all the stuff in between where you stop practising. Or writing days are hard. Or getting out of bed is hard. I’m a lot better now. Of course that sort of recovery never stops and I accept that now. But there were periods in my life where I just was never fulfilling potential, I was not focused, I was not motivated. And really I look back on that Fergus with empathy because I think well, it was out of my control really, I didn’t really have a choice. Going out too much, drinking too much, smoking too much, all of those things – none of which I do now. Sorry, that’s a very longwinded answer, Emma. 

NIKKI- No, it’s not. 

EMMA- No, it’s okay. I actually still want to know though, sometimes we hear OCD is about cleaning a lot or sometimes it’s about intrusive thoughts. What is it for you?

FERGUS- Obviously the thing you’ll see on TVs and films is someone cleaning or someone flicking a light switch, that’s how it’s often depicted in the media. For me it’s pure O essentially, so it’s all mental dexterity and mental sort of loopholes to jump through. The very first earliest memory of my OCD was worrying that if I saw a physically disabled person that I would punch them. So, that was kind of my first intrusive thought. Very often people get this with heights, so they get something very high and they feel they’re going to throw themselves off, and they get worried they’re going to do that, or throw themselves in front of a train. It's the polar opposite of what they want to do. And of course the very last thing that I wanted to do was hit someone that I perceived at the time as vulnerable, and that’s where the angst came from. This is like ten years old. And of course I was so frozen by that that I started to develop the behaviour to cope with that; and that was pulling the thought back to my head. And that pulling the thought back to my head became doing that a certain amount of times at different heights, at different times of the day, all day, every day. And then that reduced down because friends would say, ‘Why are you doing that? That’s really weird’. So, then I would just imagine pulling the thought back and imagined that. 

EMMA- Oh, so you were physically doing it with your hands?

FERGUS- I was physically doing that. And I think through school and socialising my OCD transitioned basically to an entirely, it sometimes has physical manifestations, but really it’s pretty within my own head. So, I can be interacting, I can be completely normal, I can go out and perform to 500 people, but it will feel like I’m having a cigarette put out on me because I’ve got something that I need to deal with. But I’ve just learnt to compartmentalise a little bit. 

NIKKI- I mean, you’ve done so well from having to cope with all of that and, I can’t imagine, that must have been so difficult for you. But now look at you, I mean you won a Bafta. Tell us about the Bafta.

FERGUS- So, I was very fortunate. My last year of university didn’t know what I was going to do, where I was going to go, and an audition came up with Objective Productions, an amazing guy called Anthony Owen, and two weeks after I left university I started filming that. And the show was called Help, My Supply Teacher is Magic, not a good hashtag. Essentially we would go into schools, I’d pretend to be a supply teacher, hidden cameras everywhere, I’d do magic and the kids would go wild. 

NIKKI- Oh, I love that. And what was it like getting that Bafta? Do you feel proud of what you’ve achieved?

FERGUS- I think so, yeah, at times I definitely do. Some days with my mental health I go [frustrated voice] this is the same as it was ten years ago, I’ve not made any progress or any change. And then a good friend of mine, Jack, often goes, ‘Fergus, look at three years ago, and look at the changes you’ve made’. So, I think having an objective party to validate change is a really important thing. 

NIKKI- And also you’re in an industry that’s tough anyway. I mean, it’s tough, isn’t it?

FERGUS- Yeah.

NIKKI- And actually you do have to be a little bit kind on yourself and think how well I’ve done. Like I said, I couldn’t list all your credits in the opening of that, so you’ve done so well. 

FERGUS- I’m coming on every day. 

NIKKI- Please do. 

EMMA- Can I list one of your credits?

FERGUS- Please. 

NIKKI- Yeah, go on, Ems.

EMMA- You’re a really, really successful virtual magician online. How does that work? And do you still do that now that COVID is not as prominent in the news anymore? 

FERGUS- Yeah, still performing corporates for virtual shows. It started off at the start of the pandemic, I won’t labour on about my theatre show or the things that were planned for that year, but like so many performers, so many of us the whole year was cancelled very quickly. And I spent a couple of weeks moping around my flat in my pants, and then very quickly decided to try out the virtual medium over Zoom. And it transitioned from my phone balanced on a load of books to a fully-fledged studio three months later, with three cameras, lights, studio switches, everything. So, that December 2020 I think I had 81 events in three weeks. 

NIKKI- Wow.

FERGUS- For Google, Microsoft, Deloitte, KPMG, TikTok, the lot. So, it was pretty wild to be fair. 

NIKKI- Okay, well we’re going to wrap this up in a second, but I know you’ve been reading my mind throughout this interview, haven’t you, Fergus?

FERGUS- Well, I’ve been trying to pick up on some things. Obviously you have a word. 

NIKKI- Yes, I’ve got it in my head. Is there anything you want me to do? 

FERGUS- No. Could you just think of a letter – don’t say it out loud – but just think of a letter somewhere in the middle, just in your head. Do you have one?

NIKKI- Just in my head of the word? 

FERGUS- Of the word. 

NIKKI- Yeah okay, got it. 

FERGUS- Is it an e?

NIKKI- Oh my goodness, I can’t…yes, it was an e.

FERGUS- Just focus on the first letter for me, just the first letter. 

NIKKI- Yeah.

FERGUS- Is it a t?

NIKKI- I can’t, yeah, I can’t cope. Yeah. 

FERGUS- I want you to imagine, you say, ‘Fergus the word I’m thinking of in my head is…’ and then it’s right there on the tip of your tongue, you almost want to say it but you won’t, you just keep repeating it in your head, just in your head. 

NIKKI- Oh, in my head, okay fine, yeah. 

FERGUS- Exactly. And you just keep saying it over and over. Teeth? Is it teeth?

NIKKI- Oh my goodness. Fergus, yes, it’s teeth! And you know why I thought of teeth? Because Fergus has got amazing teeth.  

EMMA- Well, you are obsessed with people’s teeth. 

NIKKI- I know. 

EMMA- Are they magic teeth?

NIKKI- No, they’re beautiful, they’re absolutely beautiful teeth. Oh my goodness, Fergus!

FERGUS- Girls, thank you so much for having me on. 

NIKKI- Emma, that is incredible. He’s got to do one on you. 

EMMA- Oh, I’m really cynical. It would never work. Well, let’s see. Come back. 

NIKKI- Emma, he just plucked a word from my brain. 

EMMA- I know. Right, next time can you do me please?  

NIKKI- I love that so much. 

EMMA- Thanks for a wonderful conversation. 

FERGUS- Thank you both so much. 

NIKKI- Thank you, Fergus. 

EMMA- Bye.

NIKKI- Well, honestly, mind-blowing. 

EMMA- You just couldn’t even listen to him; you were just looking at his hands doing his tricks. 

NIKKI- I don’t know how he did that little AirPod thing. And how, how did he get into my head like that? Listen, while we’re in the spirit of magique, right, think of a word Ems, and I’m going to jump into your head.

EMMA- Got one.

NIKKI- You’ve got one?

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- Okay, here we go. Knowing you it’s bound to be disability related, so I’m saying scooter. 

EMMA- Very close. Slippers. 

NIKKI- How on earth is that close? [Laughter] You can listen to us on your smart speaker – moving on – by saying, ‘Ask the BBC for Access All’ and it’ll play the very latest edition. 

EMMA- Or you can leave us a voice note or a text to our WhatsApp number which is 0330 123 9480.

NIKKI- And you can google Access All transcript and you’ll find one for every programme we’ve ever done. Now, until next time, alakazam, poof. 

EMMA- We’re gone. 

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER- You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast. 

CLIP- Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP- You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP- At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP- I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER- And we talk to the best BBC journalists, asking the most important questions: 

CHRIS- What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos? 

CLIP- Don’t start me, Chris. 

PRESENTER- That’s Newscast from BBC News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news. 

CLIP- And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP- Listen to Newscast every day on BBC Sounds. 

CLIP- I’m glad I asked that. 

CLIP- I’m very glad that you asked that!