Life's an accessible beach

 

26th May 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 54

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

 

 

EMMA-           I was in a taxi the other day, Nikki, going to see some colleagues for some food.

NIKKI-             Ooh. What food?

EMMA-           A pakora bar.

NIKKI-             Oh nice.

EMMA-           So, pakoras and curry and stuff like that.

NIKKI-             All the important questions: what food, what did you eat.

EMMA-           Yes. Very accessible food because I got a pakora wrap and chips so all picky-uppy.

NIKKI-             Just shove it in.

EMMA-           Yeah, just shove it in there.

NIKKI-             Do you know what I worry about as well? I don’t know if it’s a disability thing, but my jaw doesn’t open quite as wide as it used to. And so that’s basically I can’t publicly do burgers, because they’re so thick now, the meat is so thick.

EMMA-           The problem for me, and maybe it’s a problem with you as well with your muscles and fingers and stuff…

NIKKI-             How very dare you [laughs].

EMMA-           …like trying to hold them.

NIKKI-             So, if it’s not an old school kind of like patty, Dave or whoever will squish it down and make it as small as possible, then wrap it in a serviette, then I lean my arms and then I eat it. That’s the safest possible way. But old style I’m going to spoil whatever I’m wearing. We are a delight to go out with, listeners. We do eat well.

EMMA-           Yeah, just give us like dumplings, stuff like that.

NIKKI-             Just give us finger food. We’ll look good, really good.

EMMA-           I’m not saying blind or visually impaired people cannot eat complicated food.

NIKKI-             I’m definitely saying I can’t. I eat like a pig when I’m out.

EMMA-           I’m saying I struggle, and I struggle with getting meat off a bone or bony fish or spaghetti Bolognese.

NIKKI-             That should be your Twitter handle: IStruggleToGetMeatOffaBone@EmmaTracey.

EMMA-           [Laughs].

MUSIC-           Theme music.

NIKKI-             Hello, and thank you so much for joining the growing number of listeners to the podcast. Hey Em, that’s what it says here, we’re growing.

EMMA-           We’re growing in numbers.

NIKKI-             This is Access All. I’m Nikki Fox in London.

EMMA-           And I’m Emma Tracey in our Edinburgh studio.

NIKKI-             We’re the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast, but really there’s not we won’t talk about or look into, is there? What are we doing this week, Em?

EMMA-           Let me tease you into listening a little longer by saying disabled people versus robots.

NIKKI-             Hmm.

EMMA-           I’ll give you a clue: we’re not talking Transformers movies here.

NIKKI-             Shame.

EMMA-           We’ve also got a new feature of the week, very excited about that, and we’ll be talking about disabled parenting and self-esteem.

NIKKI-             Do stay with us wherever you are in the world, and tell your friends and colleagues about us too.

                         Hey, Emma?

EMMA-           Uh-huh?

NIKKI-             [Singing] It’s getting hot outside.

EMMA-           [Singing] So, take off all your clothes.

NIKKI-             Well, that was going somewhere I didn’t expect.

EMMA-           I am getting so hot.

BOTH-             I’m going to take my clothes off.

NIKKI-             Okay, we went very flat there [laughs]. But I am excited, holiday season, and I feel very lucky because it doesn’t happen every year, that I’m going to get away for a bit of sunshine in Portugal.

EMMA-           Nice.

NIKKI-             Yeah, and I’ve already bought a few cheap bikinis, because they never last, you know.

EMMA-           Why do bikinis not last?

NIKKI-             Because I swim so much, and I put so much factor 50 on that they just stain.

EMMA-           Oh right. So, you need disposable bikinis.

NIKKI-             You know have you ever got in a pool and you sort of get in there and your pants come straight off because they’ve just got so big [laughs].

EMMA-           I just don’t wear bikinis. I wear swimsuits. Anyway, that’s probably irrelevant, isn’t it?

NIKKI-             But are you excited about holidays?

EMMA-           I am. I’m going to Ireland so I can’t guarantee sunshine.

NIKKI-             No.

EMMA-           So, I’m sort of thinking I’d like to look into going to Greece quite soon.

NIKKI-             Well, yes. [Bazooka music] And are there any reasons why, Ems?

EMMA-           Well, I will tell you why. The country’s planning to make nearly 300 of their beaches accessible.

NIKKI-             What are they doing?

EMMA-           Well, they have a new little Greek invention gadget called a SEATRAC.

NIKKI-             Ooh.

EMMA-           Yes, so it’s a chair on a track, remote control operated that you get into, you press a button and it brings down to the water’s edge. And then you’ve got…

NIKKI-             Catapults you into the sea.

EMMA-           No, [laughs].

NIKKI-             That would be amazing, I’d love that.

EMMA-           They’ve got very sensible handrails that you can sort of get yourself out and into the sea, because the sea’s right there in front of you, have you little swim, get back to the chair and press another button on the remote and it takes you back up to the top of the track.

NIKKI-             So, basically I get my little tush out of my scooter onto this SEATRAC thing, fly down, kerchoo, into the water, pants have come off, happy days.

EMMA-           Happy days.

NIKKI-             I like the Greeks.

EMMA-           And then when you get back to the top there is a shower button on it.

NIKKI-             What?

EMMA-           A shower button to give you a little rinse.

NIKKI-             Get that salt off.

EMMA-           Yeah. And then you get into your own wheelchair. I assume you’ll have a towel down or something when you get into your wheelchair.

NIKKI-             That is so cool because sand is the scooter rider’s enemy.

EMMA-           They’ve thought of everything.

NIKKI-             Sand is the wheelchair user’s enemy. Are they doing anything else, Ems?

EMMA-           Yes, they’re doing all the sensible things: they’ve got accessible parking, they’ve got bathrooms and changing facilities that are accessible, remote operated ramps, and they’ve also got these corridors to the sun loungers and the cafés. Because you know you might get all sandy, get into those and sand under wheelchair wheels is not very good. So, yeah they’ve thought of everything I think. I mean, I think they’ve really thought about it. And it feels like this SEATRAC business is going global. I saw something about it going to the US and that. So, we need to do a campaign, maybe should we, to bring it to the UK. Because would you use one? What’s your beach experience?

NIKKI-             Oh yeah, I would totally 100% be on that. I love swimming. You know I love swimming, but obviously as a fake blonde I worry about the chlorine and the green and all of that kind of stuff. You don’t have to worry about that in the sea; just get a bit of salt in it. And there’s just nothing like swimming in the sea. I probably am a little worried, it would have to be very calm, because I’m a bit worried about not being the strongest swimmer anymore. I used to be quite strong; I’m not so much anymore. But yes, in answer, if I was there with Dave, my big buff boyfriend, I would be in that sea swimming away. I’d be using the SEATRAC. And I would need it because there is no way around sand; someone would just have to carry you. So, this is a great alternative.

EMMA-           Have you been barely in the sea then recently?

NIKKI-             I haven’t been in the sea for years.

EMMA-           Years and years?

NIKKI-             Donkey doodles, no. I went to an accessible beach in Cromer, which is near where my boyfriend’s family live, and they were just launching those big wheelchairs with the massive tyres. Have you seen them?

EMMA-           Does this seem like a better option than those then?

NIKKI-             It does. Don’t get me wrong, that chair was pretty dandy actually because it went over a lot of stones and got you right to the water’s edge and it was lovely. But this does sound like a little more [French accent) élégante, a little bit more indépendente. I don’t know why I’m going French.

EMMA-           Well, if you want to know more the project has a dedicated official website, and it lists the beaches that are already accessible via an interactive map.

NIKKI-             I think it’s time for us to introduce a new – I’m hesitant to say the word – regular feature.

EMMA-           Oh, it’s always the death knell for a feature when you start it up as being a regular feature.

NIKKI-             So, we’re a very big tight team, well I say big, we’re not a big team, we’re a very tight team. We chat a lot, don’t we, and we have these ideas. And Damon, our captain, our chief is very wedded to this idea [laughs]. We sourced, or Dave, the technical genius, sourced a professional fanfare. But Damon, for some reason, decided to do one of his very own. And I think we should play it now, Ems.

DAMON-         Doo-doo-doo-da-doo. Fact of the Week!

NIKKI-             [Laughter] in contrast shall we hear the professional one?

FANFARE-      [Fanfare] Fact of the Week!

NIKKI-             And now let’s hear Damon:

DAMON-         Doo-doo-doo-da-doo. Fact of the Week!

EMMA-           I’m going for Damon on this one.

NIKKI-             I mean, Damon’s definitely cheaper so we might stick with Damon. I don’t know whether we’re going to stick with this item, but let’s just go with it.

EMMA-           And what is the item called, Nikki?

NIKKI-             [Singing] disability Fact of the Week. Right, are you ready for this, Ems?

EMMA-           I am on the edge of my seat.

NIKKI-             Here we go: did you know, Emma Tracey, who pretty much is the person that knows more about disability than I’ve ever met before, did you know that labradoodles were invented for accessibility reasons?

EMMA-           Yes, I did [laughs].

NIKKI-             I knew it.

EMMA-           But I am blind and I have had a guide dog, and my family are really into dogs. But I did know that, yeah.

NIKKI-             She knew, everyone. So, this is the first flaw in our regular feature, but I’ll try and come up with something that she doesn’t know. But basically a lady in Hawaii she needed a guide dog but her husband was severely allergic to dogs, so it took three years and they finally bred a hypoallergenic dog for her.

Anyway, if you have a disability fact for us we want to hear from you. You can email us in the usual way, accessall@bbc.co.uk, or you can tweet us, you can privately tweet me so Emma doesn’t see it @BBCAccessAll or @FoxNikkiFox, there’s a plug. Or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note.

FANFARE-      Fact of the Week!

EMMA-           We’ve had some really lovely messages this week. So, remember on our last episode Rosie, who has bipolar?

NIKKI-             Yes, oh I love her.

EMMA-           She came on to talk about a manic episode she had. Well, David tweeted us to say, ‘Rosie, you are fabulous’. Dead right, David. ‘So many people have gone through the same. I’m glad you’re getting help. London is a scary place to have an episode, no doubt about that’.

NIKKI-             Oh. I had just a little Insta chat with Rosie after and she is magnificent. We also had a message from Wheely Haunted on Twitter. Now, Wheely Haunted says, ‘Listening back to the episode where I got a little bit nerdy with Charleston’. Do you remember, we were talking about mobility scooters? Charleston came into the studio to talk about homelessness. He was in a gigantic scooter, proper pimp my ride thing, and we had a little geeky chat, which Emma absolutely loved.

EMMA-           I did.

NIKKI-             So, she says, ‘you were talking about pimped up rides, so I thought I’d show off my baby’. She says she uses it off road, and she uses a power chair for daily out and about. But hers looks like this, and I’m going to get back on the old audio description here and I’m going to describe this bad boy, Emma. Are you ready?

EMMA-           Please, yes.

NIKKI-             Well, it’s a beast. Four huge wheels, grey, but not boring, oh no, no. I mean, it literally looks like it could turn into…it looks like a Transformer. But also chic at the same time. It’s got a very plush seat, unlike mine. Got a high back. Got a headrest, which is something I don’t.

EMMA-           Does it look powerful?

NIKKI-             Yeah, totally powerful.

EMMA-           Does it look like it could go at speed?

NIKKI-             Oh yeah. That’s an 8-mile an hour for sure.

MUSIC-           Access All.

NIKKI-             Wakefield in Yorkshire welcomed some new residents this week when little AI robots began delivering food and shopping all around the town. Now, when we found out that Starship Technologies, the company in charge of the robots, had launched a panel to get input from disabled customers we wanted to know more. And here to tell us more is Lisa Johnson, Head of Public Affairs at Starship. Hello Lisa.

LISA-               Hello. How are we all?

NIKKI-             So lovely to talk to you. And one of the first members of the new advisory group is Steve Tyler. Now, Steve is blind, works for Leonard Cheshire disability charity, and has a keen interest in how robots and disabled people interact with one another. Hello Steve.

STEVE-           Hello.

NIKKI-             I’m going to start with you, Lisa, because I know these robots. Actually I did some filming a couple of years ago for a BBC One programme. But these robots are already doing their thing in Cambridge; I went to Milton Keynes so I know that they’re there, and they’re at other places around the world. Can you describe them for our listeners who don’t know what they look like and what they actually do?

LISA-               Of course I will. Yeah, we’re Starship Technologies, and our little robots are autonomous delivery robots, and they can fit about two or three bags of shopping into them. They’re almost like a little cooler on wheels. They’re about as wide as a human. They come up just above knee levels, but they’re also got a flag. So, the flag pole will come up to about shoulder height, and it’s got a bright orange flag with LED lights in there to help people who are partially sighted spot it as it’s moving around. And it’s got a big flat lid on the top. You open the entire lid to take out your shopping from an insulated compartment inside it. We’ve got little headlights, we’ve got rear lights and indicators. It trundles along on its six little wheels, and it travels on the pavement, it can climb up and down the kerbs as well.

NIKKI-             Now, we’ve got a little clip of the robot. This is what it sounds like:

ROBOT-          Excuse me, would you please let me pass?

NIKKI-             I know, it sounds a little weird, but they are quite cute. We’re used to delivery companies getting our food to our front door. Is this the best way to get items to people, Lisa?

LISA-               Well, I think you’ve got to look at it as a whole what we call multimodal mix. So, some things it’s always going to be better for humans to do. But when you look at what we do in terms of Starship, how do you ethically and sustainably transport maybe a tenner’s worth of shopping, 20 quid’s worth of shopping and make sure that everybody in the supply chain benefits from it? That could be quite difficult, right, because you’ve got wages to pay, you’ve got to make sure that the people who make it get a profit, supermarkets and stuff. So, this is a really good way to get small amounts of shopping in places that often don’t have a lot of delivery infrastructure direct from the shop to people’s homes efficiently. I think one of the key things as well is there’s no minimum delivery by you. So, if it’s just those few things that you’ve forgotten then that’s great, isn’t it, you can just get the extra few bits that you’ve forgotten for tea without putting the kids back in the car. And it will turn up within 30, 60 minutes.

EMMA-           The whole thing for me is getting to the shop takes 20 minutes; getting around it takes 20 minutes because I’m getting help; getting back it takes 20 minutes. I’m quite a forgetful person, so actually it feels like a fun thing to do to order bits and bobs of shopping. And then if I order online shopping because I’ve forgotten something you have to go up to 50 quid nowadays to get it at a reasonable delivery charge.

NIKKI-             Is that what would make you choose the AI robots then, Em, just because of the minimum delivery charge?

EMMA-           Yes, and the fact that you can get an app to make it sing a song when you get your food. So, when you open the lid to get your food out it can sing whatever song you’ve asked it to sing.

NIKKI-             Stop it! Babushka.

LISA-               One of our most popular at the moment is Baby Shark.

NIKKI-             The one thing I did struggle with – it’s all about me – when I was filming with the robot was getting the food out of the robot. You know when the lid comes up?

LISA-               Yeah, so we took a look at the actual sort of height, and the height should be at the point where someone in a wheelchair, the average vast number should be able to get it out. But it would be interesting, what was it that was stopping you being able to get stuff out? What was the barrier there?

NIKKI-             All of my muscles are weak, you see. So, my arms are just as weak as my legs really; they’re flipping useless. So, it was strength. I know, I’m not silly, of course that would mean that I would try and make sure that I had somebody with me to help me do that. You’ve got to be a bit sensible. I’m not just going to order shopping and expect. But that’s the comfort of having a person deliver because you can always say to that person, ‘Would you mind? I’m a bit stuck. I’m on my own. Could you whack it in the kitchen on the top for me?’ that kind of thing.

EMMA-           I’d love a robot to do that.

NIKKI-             This accessibility advisory panel that you’ve set up you are speaking to disabled people, aren’t you?

LISA-               Constantly. If you’re in, we’re no longer in Milton Keynes now, but if you’re in Wakefield you’ve probably never seen one of these robots before. And how you integrate technology into people’s communities is really important. In Wakefield we spoke to Wakefield and District Sight Aid, we took the robots, we took them to a coffee morning, we let people touch them, hear them, really understand how they’re going to operate, and ask any questions that they might want to ask.

NIKKI-             That’s the key, isn’t it, it’s the fact that these mini robots – and this is the big difference between the other delivery companies out there – is that your mini robots are using the pavement. And obviously I’m a scooter user, Emma’s blind, so we know there are always problems with obstacles on the pavements. What do you envisage are going to be the biggest obstacles with the robot?

LISA-               We’ve done 10 million kilometres over 4 million deliveries, and we learn with every single one of those. So, some of the problems that you could encounter for example would be if you’ve got a narrow pathway and you’ve got a wheelchair or mobility device and robot then what happens. And we’ve got plans and systems in place for that. But I can understand that if you’re coming down the path and meet the robot it’s well, what am I supposed to do. So, part of it is we’ve got to explain to the community how that would work. We’ve spent a lot of time having the robots learn what mobility devices look like, so they recognise them. That takes a lot of interaction. They need to see these things a lot of times to understand them, and that’s what we’ve done. And so now it understands that right, that’s a mobility device, I need to get out the way. If I can’t get out the way I’ve got to ping my remote assistant – because there’s always some human backup – the remote assistant will step in and say, ‘Right, we’re going to reverse here and get you out of the way’.

NIKKI-             What about say like me back in the day when I used to walk incredibly slowly, would that be a problem as well?

LISA-               The robots are programmed to be like cautious pedestrians. So, their number thing is safety. We want to get people’s orders there quickly, but the number one thing for us is to get there safely. So, the robots have got obstacle avoidance technology, and that means that they’ve got sensors and cameras that can tell how quickly things are moving towards them. So, the robot’s job is just to stay out of your way. It will be going relatively slowly, about the walking pace of someone walking at a decent pace as a human. If it’s near anything else it slows down because its job is not to touch you, it’s not to get too close to you. We’re trying to make an auditory signal when a robot sees a cane. But canes are really thin, as you know, and the robots don’t encounter canes very often. So, we’ve got to make sure we keep having these interactions with canes so the robots can understand what canes are and we can understand them. At that point then the robot can say, ‘Hi, I’m a Starship robot, I’m just letting you know that I’m here’. So, that’s the sort of work that generally we’ve put. And from the discussions that we’ve had with people we’ve changed our engineering pipeline to include this as a priority that we’re working on.

NIKKI-             And Steve, why did you agree to be part of the panel?

STEVE-           As you guys know, AI big news. There are lots and lots of opportunities; there are also lots of threats. There needs to be regulation and there needs to be a level of control. But the opportunities are vast. But what’s the delivery process like from beginning to end? One of you mentioned music before, that it plays music when you open the lid; well you might want a signal before that happens so you know where it is. You might want some way of indicating that you have other specific requirements. What about if there’s a height restriction? This is the beginning of the discussion.

EMMA-           Do panels like that work?

STEVE-           It depends on how well the company receives them. In general yes, it’s better to be on the inside than the outside. And at the moment with autonomous vehicles generally for example, especially driverless vehicles, the obsession for a very, very long time was well, we’re not going to really have any sensible discussion until you can demonstrate to us, technology universe, that they’re 100% safe. That effectively is a blocker for any further discussion.

NIKKI-             One day, Steve, say my PA is not very well, do you think I’ll be able to call on a robot to help me get up in the morning?

STEVE-           There is no doubt about that.

NIKKI-             Lisa, thank you so much for coming on.

LISA-               Lovely to speak to you.

NIKKI-             And thank you so much, Steve, as well.

STEVE-           Thank you.

NIKKI-             Now, we’d love you to tell us what you think about the growing number of automated vehicles and AI robots on the streets. You can do that by messaging our WhatsApp number which is 0330 123 9480. Or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Or you could snail mail, this is a new one, BBC, New Broadcasting House, and the postcode is W1A 1AA.

MUSIC-           Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-             Let’s have a good old chat about two of our favourite subjects, when I say our I mean Emma and I, disabled parenting. Because that’s all Emma ever bangs on about.

EMMA-           Yeah.

NIKKI-             And music, which is, as you know, my baby and my biggest passion. Now, we’re joined by Australian musician and disability advocate, Eliza Hull, who is passionate about both and right now is in the UK touring. Hello, Eliza. How are you?

ELIZA-             Yeah, very well.

NIKKI-             Are you enjoying the UK?

ELIZA-             I’m absolutely loving it. The weather has been quite nice.

NIKKI-             For a change.

ELIZA-             Yeah, [laughs] for a change. I performed at the Great Escape festival over the weekend in Brighton and had the most incredible weather and performances. And been touring with Ruth Lyon and other disabled artists. And it’s just been so wonderful to be surrounded by her and her band.

NIKKI-             I want to give listeners a flavour of your latest song, which is beautiful. And it’s called Running under Water. [Song clip] Now, this is the first song you’ve written that’s actually about disability, isn’t it?

ELIZA-             Yeah, that’s right. I’ve had my disability since I was five years old. I have a condition called Charcot-Marie-Tooth, so when I was five I just started falling over at school almost every day. And so my parents took me to lots of  hospital appointments and I was finally diagnosed with Charcot-Marie-Tooth. I guess growing up I hid my disability because I think it was the under-representation in the media and often othering us, and that kind of fed into the belief that disability was something, an identity  that I shouldn’t belong to. And so for a long time in the music industry I just didn’t talk about it, and would often get my band mates to lift me up onto the stage with the curtain pulled so that the audience didn’t notice. Now I’m proudly disabled and this is the first song I’ve written about my identity and feeling I guess a weight off my shoulders, because it’s not a good life to live when you’re not being yourself and you’re not being authentic.

NIKKI-             It’s so freeing, isn’t it?

ELIZA-             It was just exhausting always kind of problem solving how I could meet a record label or meet a prospective manager and sit down so that they wouldn’t see the way that I walk or wouldn’t see if I fumbled or fell over.

NIKKI-             When did it change for you, Eliza? When did you think oh, I’m happy with me, I’m not going to worry about this anymore?

ELIZA-             I guess one time was when I was a teenager and taken to church, and my friends told me that I was going to be fixed, and I was surrounded by people chanting and putting their hands on me and saying that they were going to heal me. And I remember at that moment thinking why am I here. And the reason that I was there was because I had lived in a society where disability was feared and stigmatised and under-represented, and I had believed that I should be fixed. And so it was kind of that moment that actually this has to change. And so bit by bit I guess as I moved to the city and started making music I tried to be myself, even if it was just around my friends first. It wasn’t actually until I had my first child really when I actually decided I’ve got to be really true to myself, and I started to identify as having a disability. And not only that, but speaking about it publicly.

EMMA-           You’ve gone full tilt: you’ve gone from nothing to full tilt disabled person. It’s amazing.

NIKKI-             I know. We’re going to talk about the kiddywinks in a minute. Back to the song, explain exactly what it’s about that song and the lyrics and all of that.

ELIZA-             The first line is, ‘If these legs will not move it’s just the way it’s going to be, and maybe I don’t fit in with what you want me to be. And this cookie-cutter version it’s not doing me any favours’.

NIKKI-             What for you, as somebody first hand in the industry, what are the main barriers? And what are the solutions?

ELIZA-             I remember when I was a teenager watching the Arias, which is the equivalent of the Brit Awards, and seeing my favourite band win an award. And they ran up and down multiple stairs to get that award. And I remember thinking, well, that’s not for me, I’m not going to be able to win that award because I can’t get up onto the stage, I can’t get up stairs. And I think that is so important the messaging that we tell ourselves when we’re young, that feeling of I can’t do that, I’m not invited in that space, it’s not an inclusive space. And so I’m really strongly advocating that even if a disabled artist is nominated or not, that we have a ramp up onto that stage so that young people at home watching it on TV goes actually that’s possible for me. I want to actually really change spaces so that the future generations of music and music makers can step into the music industry and feel invited, because I definitely didn’t when I was growing up.

NIKKI-             Got to see it to be it, we say that all the time, don’t we, Ems?

ELIZA-             Absolutely.

EMMA-           We do.

NIKKI-             And you’ve got a public playlist as well with loads of other disabled musicians. I was like holy moly, there are tons.

EMMA-           Holy Moly and the Crackers even. [Cheering]

NIKKI-             Give us an idea. I mean, some of the names of the bands…

EMMA-           Tralala Blip. [Music clip].

NIKKI-             Yeah, I love them.

EMMA-           We used to play them on the previous version of access All, Ouch, we used to play Tralala Blip.

NIKKI-             Very cool.

EMMA-           And we used to play Rudely Interrupted as well. What about you, what are your favourite musicians at the minute?

ELIZA-             They are great ones. Another one, a UK artist, Wren, he’s a really interesting artist [music clip]. Alter Boy are an Australian band that have deaf and hard of hearing members, and they’re incredible live [music clip]. Also Justine Eltakchi is another artist from Australia, [music clip] she’s a producer, songwriter and incredible singer. The thing is there is just so much talent out there. The issue is artists can’t get into the door, in every way actually. And it’s because still I feel like we’re not representing disabled musical artists enough, and the barriers are too big.

NIKKI-             If anyone’s going to crack that nut it’ll be you, I reckon, Eliza. But it is a whole problem.

EMMA-           You’re a mum of two, Eliza, and you have been involved in a book about disabled parenting which has been released in the US, in Australia and it’s been recently launched in the UK. Who are some of the disabled parents you spoke to for that book and what sorts of stories did they tell you?

ELIZA-             There are 35 parents in the book. I guess the common thread throughout is that really the greatest barriers are outside in society. It’s not what happens in the home, it’s when we step out into the world that we face discrimination and stigma. And for me it happened very early on. In fact it happened before I was even pregnant when I went to my neurologist, I said that I wanted to start a family and he told me that I shouldn’t become a mother and that I would fall over, that I would hurt my child and recommended that I don’t be a parent. And I remember feeling a lot of shame and vulnerability, and I actually believed him, because I think we are taught to trust our medical professionals. And I’d been seeing him for a while. It was then that I really truly realised that we do need to change the way that the medical space sees disability, and especially sees disabled parents. Because I think there is that attitude that we are burden on our children or that we’re not capable to have a family.

EMMA-           I think if you don’t see those stories you never know that you can be a parent. If I hadn’t joined a blind parenting Facebook group and stuff I would never have known how it all worked and all the gadgets I needed. It’s another you’ve got to see it to be it situation, isn’t it?

ELIZA-             Especially for parents with learning disability or even parents that are blind, people don’t realise, but children are taken from disabled parents. When we think about it parenting is complicated, it’s not easy, it’s a constant learning curve for anybody.

EMMA-           Oh yes.

ELIZA-             And so when you have a disability there are added complexities. And I think ultimately all we need is support at times, and potentially some education. And without those services that are sometimes not available I think that you are ultimately setting certain disabled people up to fail.

EMMA-           So, are you hoping to start teaching people as children that they can be who they want to be? Because you’ve started writing children’s books as well! Where do you get the time?

NIKKI-             I literally love this, About the Social Model, I literally applaud you because I’m obsessed with the social model and making it sexy. And you’re now making it for children and I love it.

ELIZA-             Yeah. So, the first book that I’ve put out, it’s in the UK now, it’s called Come Over to My House. It’s kind of actually a sister book to We’ve Got This in that a lot of the characters that you see in Come Over to My House are in the parenting book. So, you’ll meet a mother that’s blind, a mother that’s deaf, a family that the father and child have dwarfism, a child that’s a wheelchair user. And I guess it shows that ultimately disabled people are creative, problem solvers, adaptable, and that their home lives really show that, and that in fact disability is not something to be feared; in fact it can make life unique and interesting and fun. It is to be that representation for disabled people, but it’s also for non-disabled families that might not know how to talk about disability or to have that conversation in the home.

NIKKI-             Just to remind our listeners, We’ve Got This is the name of your book. And Eliza’s music can be found in all the usual ways. But it’s been a treat.

ELIZA-             Thank you so much.

NIKKI-             That was Eliza Hull. How beautiful is her latest single, Emma?

EMMA-           Absolutely gorgeous.

NIKKI-             I love it, I love it. I love music! I went a bit high-pitched there, didn’t I?

EMMA-           Yeah.

NIKKI-             That’s how much I love it. Now, if you’re a disabled songwriter then please send us your stuff. You can send us an mp3 and you can do that to accessall@bbc.co.uk. I’m going to say it again, I love music! So does Emma, we both do, so I will happily spend any spare time I have listening to whatever you’ve got. I’d love that, honestly.

EMMA-           I would as well. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. We’ll be back next week in all the usual places, smart speakers, 5 Live etc. Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.

NIKKI-             Until then people, goodbye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER-  You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

CLIP-               Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

PRESENTER-  We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-               You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER-  We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP-               At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER-  We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-               I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER-  And we talk to the best BBC journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-            What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos?

CLIP-               Don’t start me, Chris.

PRESENTER-  That’s Newscast from BBC News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-               And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP-               Listen to Newscast every day on BBC Sounds.

CLIP-               I’m glad I asked that.

CLIP-               I’m very glad that you asked that!