Festivals: 'It was just a complete nightmare from start to finish"

16th June 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 57

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

EMMA- Do you remember that time when we were talking about the thing you put up your nose at night?

NIKKI- The Noson?

EMMA- Yeah, do you still use that?

NIKKI- The Noson. I mean, I’ve probably used it once. But I actually have had pretty cracking headaches lately, so I should probably use it more. Because I woke up the other day and I had so much work to do, but honestly I wanted to saw my head off, it was so bad. It was going to be a migraine I could tell so there was only one thing for it, Emma. 

EMMA- Loading the drugs?

NIKKI- Yes. And a little espresso. And I know that’s probably not the right thing to do. But the key ingredient in this whole get rid of Nikki’s migraine thing: my sister’s pants. 

EMMA- Your sister’s pants?

NIKKI- I put my sister’s pants on my head. It’s the only way that I’ll get rid of a headache. 

EMMA- So, do you mean your sister’s trousers or your sister’s knickers?

NIKKI- My sister’s knickers. 

EMMA- The ones she’s just been wearing or fresh?

NIKKI- No, they’re fresh, they’re fresh. Someone whacks them on my head for me. They smell so good. They just block out whatever light is in my room and they just work. 

EMMA- What do they smell like?

NIKKI- They’re comfort pants. They smell like beautiful laundry detergent, you know like the good stuff. Flowers, almost flowers. 

EMMA- Right okay. Should I try it? floral.

NIKKI- Floral [sniffs] ah. It’s the only thing. I’ve been doing it for years. Headache Nikki? Do you want your sister’s pants? Yes please. I’ll bring a pair in and you can try them. 

EMMA- Wow, you never fail to surprise me Nichola Fox.

MUSIC- Theme music. 

NIKKI- This is Access All, the weekly podcast all about disability and mental health, and so much more, from the BBC. I’m Nikki Fox in London. 

EMMA- And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh, reminding you to hit that subscribe button the minute, no actually the second that you get a chance. 

NIKKI- The second [laughs]. Now, the annual Download music festival was this weekend. The festival has a gold standard award for accessibility, but we’re going to be talking to some disabled people who attended who would not agree with that. 

EMMA- And we have a ghosthunter in a wheelchair. If you fancy visiting spooky old Grade 2 listed buildings but you just expect them to be totally inaccessible then Jayne from Wheely Haunted has your back. 

NIKKI- Great name. 

EMMA- Yeah. She can tell you otherwise. And she’s even seen a ghost or two as well. 

NIKKI- Now, you can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. We’re disability and mental health, and you might not have a scooby doo about any of that, but still listen because we’re quite funny you know, we’re told we’re funny. 

EMMA- We’re told we’re funny, so you tell us whether you agree with that by listening to the entire show and then hitting the subscribe button. Thank you. 

NIKKI- [Rock music] I can’t believe how many people got in touch with us to say how bad accessibility was at the weekend at Download Festival. Now, I saw loads of tweets popping up, but we’ve had complaints ourselves about overcrowding on the disabled viewing platforms, a lack of accessible toilets and routes, not enough water for everyone, and it’s been scorchio lately. Here are just a couple of voice notes that we’ve had that we were sent actually about your experiences:

‘I’ve been to festivals before and honestly always struggled with it, but honestly nothing in comparison with this year’s Download Festival. I had to leave extra early on the last day because I couldn’t cope anymore. Unfortunately I was ill during the drive home from exhaustion, dehydration and the heat. A lot of disabled people struggled, especially those in wheelchairs. And the chairs on the disabled platforms were rusty and weak and in some cases collapsed underneath people. Water coolers were breaking so there became large queues, as long as 45 minutes to an hour long wait, and eventually they started rationing water.’

‘I was physically assaulted by a security guard. I was going to watch Evanescence. I need the access platform just so I was a bit more safe from the massive herds of people. As soon as I stepped in I was physically assaulted. I was grabbed around like the collar of my jacket and pulled back. I have Perthes disease so I’m not really good on my legs, as well as heart conditions. And the security guard literally pulled me back, started pushing me into a crowd of people. It was like as if he was just pushing me into a solid brick wall. I was just saying to him, ‘Why are you doing this? I’m disabled’.’

EMMA- Police have confirmed, Nikki, that one man who was using a mobility scooter was hit by a car on the festival site. And his injuries are not life threatening, but we believe he is still in hospital. 

NIKKI- Blimey. Now, Download is normally considered a really accessible festival. It has the gold award status from Attitude is Everything. Now, that is a charity that connects disabled people with music and live event industries to improve access. But by the sound of it the festival appears to have really dropped the ball this year. 

EMMA- And that’s a real shame because this year’s 20th anniversary festival was expected to be the biggest and best Download ever: 82% more accessible tickets were sold this year to mark the event. 

NIKKI- Now, to get a clearer picture of what went wrong at Download we are joined by Abby, who was at the festival over the weekend. Hello Abby.

ABBY- Hi, thank you for having me. 

NIKKI- Thank you so much for coming on. And to find out how you make a festival truly accessible and safe we’re also joined by Debs from Accessible Festival – I love this – Festability. What a name. Hello Debs.

DEBS- Hello, thank you for having us. 

NIKKI- No, thank you both so much for coming on. I’m going to start with Abby because Abby you were there. Tell us, what was your experience like? 

ABBY- It was a just complete nightmare from start to finish. So, I was in camp A, which is the most accessible camp at the festival apparently; I’ve stayed I that camp twice previously at Download Festival 2018 and 2019. But this year it was just horrific. On the first day we were keeping a little walkway because there was a wheelchair user camping at the back near the fence, so we automatically said, okay we’ll keep this line clear so this person can get out. I woke up on the Thursday morning and the stewards in the middle of the night had put a large eight-man tent in front of my tent, so I had less than a metre to try and get out of my tent with my walking stick. And I wasn’t able to reach my personal assistant anymore. The obstacles I faced were guy ropes had been placed out; all my items that were outside my tent and my neighbour’s items they’d all been shoved in the front of my tent, which the stewards should have been aware there was a disabled person because I’d put my walking stick across outside my tent so I was ready to grab it, because I only had a little tent. 

NIKKI- What was it like going to see your favourite bands? How was that experience for you? 

ABBY- I didn’t get to see many bands. I saw less than ten bands the whole weekend over four days. 

NIKKI- No!

ABBY- Because of how bad the accessibility was. On the first day I didn’t get to see the main headliner because it was just so packed and I just had to get myself out of that situation. So, yeah I missed all of the main headliners. 

NIKKI- Did you use the viewing platform, Abby? 

ABBY- Yes, I used the viewing platform. 

NIKKI- What was that like? 

ABBY- So, the viewing platforms are normally good. However, this year they hadn’t put any like walkways in, so people were just throwing their chairs or mobility scooters or wheelchairs, they were having to park it wherever they could find space. Which means that there was no way round it really. There were people getting agitated because they couldn’t get out of the platform because there were no walkways to get off it. And it was too full, it was really full. I mean, on the Friday my friend had a meltdown on the viewing platform, bless her, because she was just struggling so much. 

EMMA- She’s autistic, is she?

ABBY- She has neuro-diversities, yes. So, I had to comfort her. The vibrations were too much, plus the main viewing platform was well away from where it would be in previous years. We weren’t able to see the band properly. I missed one of the bands I wanted to see, missed the majority of their set because there were just too many people. 

NIKKI- Are you taking this further? 

ABBY- Yes. The experiences combined with the lack of cleanliness of the accessible toilets, because the accessible toilets weren’t cleaned. The ones near me weren’t cleaned until the Sunday morning. We had been there since Wednesday and they weren’t flushable. But the non-accessible toilets had been. And I got to the point where I ended up, because I had the wristband to use the accessible toilets because I need room, I need a rail like the grabrails – which by the way were broken. 

NIKKI- Oh, the grabrails were broken as well?

ABBY- Yeah, they were hanging off the wall. They were loose. They were dangerous. The toilet doors weren’t closing, and some disabled camper, bless them, had put a bit of rope in to try and have some privacy. A few of us are taking it further. About 60 people so far have got in contact to look at going down the legal route with this because it’s just wrong that we got treated like this. We’re not asking for 5-star luxury, which some people claim that we’re asking for; we’re just asking for accessible toilets to be cleaned like non-accessible toilets, we’re asking for walkways we can get wheelchairs on. 

NIKKI- I wonder if 82% more accessible tickets were sold whether they weren’t prepared. Debs, you’re listening to Abby now telling us about her experience, what do you make of everything you’ve heard?

DEBS- Do you know what the really sad thing is? Everything was fixable and it didn’t have to be expensive. We put on a festival, Festability is much smaller, the thought of 100,000 people through the door gives me grey hair, but what we've done with our festival is we’ve put disability first, and everything else is the afterthought. So, if we know we’re getting it right for people with a disability or a special educational need, neurodiversity, and we’re also getting it right for the carers, then everything else will work. And that’s the really sad thing is listening to all of it and it’s like they are easily changed and they don’t have to cost a lot of money, and that’s really sad. 

NIKKI- Is it for this very reason, Debs, that you set up Festability? 

DEBS- It was. I’ve got twins who are 17, one of whom is blind, autistic and has epilepsy, and the other is autistic. And then I have an 18 year old, 14 months between them was never going to be fun, and my 18 year old has had cephalism and is autistic. The boys love music with a passion, but what found is they’re really, really busy and really, really busy doesn’t always work. When we were setting up our first Festability, and we had no idea, we’re three middle aged mums and they were going, ‘Where do you want the stage?’ and I was like, ‘I don’t know. It needs to point that way’ but when we were doing it everyone who organises events kept telling us you need to bring this circle in. And we were like no, we need that space. So, we’ve just kept moving, every time we’ve got more people we’ve moved it out. And then we had a chillout area. We’ve got a sensory tent and things, but it’s a really quiet area. We also offer ear defenders who anyone who needs that. But we’ve really tried to accommodate space because I think it’s really important. 

NIKKI- You’re putting these festivals on, are they more expensive when you go to such great lengths to make them accessible? 

DEBS- Do you know what, I don’t think in the grand scheme of things they are. The more accessible they are the more people are going to come. And so you’re going to make your money. We put on the basics, the BSL signers on the stage, we have extra accessible because we know we have a higher ratio of people who need the accessible loos so we have a  higher ratio. But also we bring in EBS check chaperones, because as a carer or as a parent carer if you need to use the loo it’s a real challenge. What do you do with your child? We have Makaton signing volunteers, and we also have assistance dogs are allowed in. And also the Mobiloos. 

EMMA- Mobile changing paces.

DEBS- The changing places suites, yes, the mobile ones, we have three of those and they are manned. Because I noticed that one of them you had to go and get a key for and it wasn’t manned and I was thinking, oh wow, if that’s a hot day and you have to go and find that person and then hope they’re in the office that’s a challenge in itself.

EMMA- Now, we looked at the Download website, it says, ‘We aim to create an event that’s accessible to all of our customers. Download Festival has a dedicated disabled access team working all year round to assist customers with disabilities. Members of the disabled access team will also be present on site in both the campsite and the arena throughout the festival’. 

NIKKI- Okay. We also got in touch with Download Festival and put all the allegations we collected to them and this is what they had to say:

‘Download Festival received complaints from customers regarding access on site. We take these matters very seriously and the relevant teams are working to resolve these with customers. We are not at liberty to discuss individual cases.’

EMMA- We also contacted Attitude is Everything who work to improve accessibility at music events. It previously gave Download Festival a gold rating in its own accessibility award initiative. We wanted to ask them what went wrong, especially as everybody told us to ask them, all the charities and music people etc. They got back to confirm that they were aware of the situation, they’re collating feedback, but they said that they’re unable to comment at this time. 

NIKKI- Thank you so much for coming in, Debs and Abby. 

DEBS- Thank you. 

ABBY- Bye.

NIKKI- Now, it’s Glastonbury next week so if you’re going  let us know how you get on with that one. Is it accessible? What was the vibe? Get in touch in all the usual ways. 

EMMA- Nikki, you popped up on my telly this week.

NIKKI- I did, didn’t I? We were talking about Child Trust Funds. Do you remember that story that I did a couple of weeks ago, Emma? Child Trust Fund, which was set up in the mid-2000s by the Labour government at the time, they were open to everyone, disabled or not, and they gave you 250 quid or 500 quid in an account and if you wanted it you took it up. And then a lot of parents would top it up over time. 

Now, someone non-disabled who turns 18 can basically just walk down the bank, sign a bit of paper and off they go to Ibiza. But if you are a young person who lacks the ability to make big financial decisions, we often hear the word doesn’t have capacity – I don’t particularly love that – but if you’re a younger person who doesn’t have capacity whose parents make the decisions for you then it’s a whole world of pain. You have to go to the court of protection, it’s a long, long, lengthy process that can cost money. We’re talking about parents who are up to their eyeballs anyway because they’re probably fighting for their kid’s education, they’re fighting for their kid’s healthcare; they’ve probably got enough on their plate without having to go through 50 pages of paperwork, go through the court of protection just to get their young child’s savings. It could be between £1,000 to £7,000, £8,000. Some people have got more than that, but anyway they’re the people that we met. 

The first person we met, lovely Harry who had Down’s Syndrome, and he was one of the estimated 80,000 young people – 80,000! – whose families can’t access their child’s savings without going through the court of protection. But the follow-up that we were doing two things came to light: one we kind of knew about but we wanted to look into more was that there are a couple of providers, and one of those is called OneFamily. Now, they’re the UK’s largest Child Trust Fund provider. They are going about this in their own way. They are saying we are going to do our own checks and balances, and if we are fine and comfortable that there’s nothing dodgy going on basically we are going to release that money. I actually sat down and spoke to the CEO of OneFamily, Teddy, he’s a wonderful guy:

TEDDY- There’s a simpler, cheaper, faster process in which it can be done. So, my duty is to make sure that I’m treating all my customers fairly and all the customers that we have, regardless of their capacity, regardless of their disability that they have the same rights and therefore the same access to their funds. And after all, the key thing here is it’s their money. 

NIKKI- He said I get consultant’s letters, I get DLA papers because as often as not these parents have been dealing with their children’s benefit money anyway, larger sums of money than what’s in their Child Trust Fund. 

EMMA- So, there’s a paper trail. 

NIKKI- There’s a paper trail, exactly, and that’s exactly the word he used, Em. So, I said to him, ‘You could get into trouble for this because you’re going about it in a way that’s not technically allowed’ and he said, ‘Well, I have a duty myself in this industry to serve my customers’. So, that was one interesting point. And the other point that came to light was, we did our own analysis, there are around 4,000 young people that have got over £6,000 in their Child Trust Fund that they haven’t accessed. Now, we know that when you turn 18 you will potentially sign up for Universal Credit if you need to. Most of these families will be signing up for Universal Credit. 

EMMA- Because those people may not be in work. 

NIKKI- Won’t necessarily be able to work, exactly Ems, yeah. obviously there might be some, but they might not necessarily be working. But because they’re going to have to write that they’ve got more than £6,000 in savings they’re going to see a reduction to the amount of Universal Credit they’ve got. We spoke to one wonderful woman who was like, ‘So, my son’s got this money, he’s got £7,000, £8,000 in his savings account that I can’t access because I’m up to my eyeballs. He’s applied for Universal Credit, he’s going to see a reduction, but he can’t access the savings’. 

EMMA- So, what is the government saying about all this?

NIKKI- So, the government said it’s speeding up the court process and has released a guide, it’s like a toolkit, to help families navigate the whole legal system, which it says exists for good reason. And that is to protect from fraud and abuse. 

EMMA- So, basically everybody wants these people to get access to their trust fund money. 

NIKKI- They do. 

EMMA- It’s just about finding the right way around it. 

NIKKI- Exactly. 

EMMA- So, it sounds like you’ll even be coming back to this for part three? 

NIKKI- Potentially, because you know as well, the cost of living at the moment people need that money. We know how expensive equipment is. People that I’ve met want to buy equipment for their kid’s life, improving life enhancing equipment, and they can’t. They need to get hold of this money. Now is not the time to be holding back money for a lot of families, especially a lot of families with disabled people. So, yes I probably will be revisiting this story. 

EMMA- Now, remember lovely JJ Chalmers who was on a few weeks ago chatting to us about his role in the King’s Coronation celebrations on the BBC.

NIKKI- He was part of the presenter line-up. Most people have seen JJ, but he’s a disabled ex-soldier, and he was chatting to a lot of military people. 

EMMA- So, JJ has been on my wireless this week – I like to call it the wireless; I think it’s kind of a posh word for radio. 

NIKKI- Aren’t we supposed to be getting younger listeners, Em?

EMMA- Oh yeah, well it’s also available as a podcast on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. 

NIKKI- There you go. 

EMMA- He was on a programme called Close Encounters. 

NIKKI- I heard. 

EMMA- Which is looking at some of the portraits in the National Portrait Gallery which is about to reopen. And he was talking about a painting of plastic surgeon Archibald McIndoe. This guy did a load of work in the Second World War with young airmen who received really bad burns and other injuries, and he’s a kind of pioneer in plastic surgery. And JJ found out that the work that Sir Archibald did connected with the surgeries that he had when he was recovering from his injuries. And in this clip JJ talks about the affection he has for the surgeon:

[Clip]

JJ: I don’t know, there’s a level of formality to him. But when you hear the anecdotes of the Guinea Pig Club, so his patients, they speak of him with such fondness. The surgeons that looked after me are some of the finest surgeons in the world, they are many of them great military officers, but they’re also my best friends. These are guys and girls who looked after me not just physically but the manner in which they cared for us. And that’s what, when you see a portrait like this you see it in his eyes, that he did it because he cared. 

[End of clip]

NIKKI- It was a really lovely listen. I’ll just tell you very quickly before I pick up on that that the one thing that surprised me more, I nearly fell out of my car, was that he was called James-John Chalmers. I didn’t know what JJ…

EMMA- John-James, isn’t it?

NIKKI- Oh, I got it the wrong way round. Soz, JJ. John-James Chalmers.

EMMA- Yeah, we all know him as cool JJ and it’s actually John-James. I love that Radio 4 decided to include his full name when everybody else calls him JJ. But I also love that this doctor who’s in the picture his patients called themselves the Guinea Pig Club. 

NIKKI- I know, I know. And JJ is a member of the CASEVAC club, and I know that’s the pronunciation because I heard it this morning. And that’s the CASEVAC club is made up of soldiers evacuated from Afghanistan. They meet up regularly to party.

EMMA- But they also are open to medical people coming to talk to them about new surgeries etc. So, they kind of give themselves…

NIKKI- Sounding board.

EMMA- …as potential people for trials and things like that because they’ve had really complex injuries. Close Encounters, the series JJ is part of, can be heard on BBC Sounds. 

NIKKI- Is there a medical person that means a lot to you, Ems?

EMMA- Not in terms of my eyes because every single person always said there’s nothing they could do, so there’s nothing really very interesting there. My favourite medical person was the nurse who was about to retire but she taught me hypnobirthing and it made a massive difference when having my second baby, so that’s actually my favourite medical person. What about you? 

NIKKI- The guy that does a little drop of Botox in my droopy eye. 

EMMA- [Laughs] I love it!

NIKKI- Moving on.

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI- Shall we do this guys? 

[Clip]

JAYNE- [Spooky music] As an investigator there is nothing more satisfying than visiting a haunted location and sousing out any paranormal activity. But I’ve always felt there is more to do or more to find. Behind the hauntings in these buildings and locations are spirits, souls that were as real as you and me and had their own life stories, ups, downs, trials and tribulations. 

[End of clip]

NIKKI- Whether you’re afraid of the dark or not, for many there’s something quite irresistible about the paranormal world and the possibility of ever seeing a ghost. Jayne Mortimore has been a ghost hunter for 20 years, but after she started using her wheelchair more and more she decided to set up her own business. And I love this name, she’s called it Wheely Haunted. It's just brilliant. Now, Jayne’s aim is to find and review the UK’s most accessible haunted locations. I love this idea of ghost hunting and accessibility because it’s such a mix. And when I think of ghost hunting I kind of think of old buildings that you call up and they’re like, well we can’t put a lift in because we’re Grade 2 listed. 

JAYNE- Yeah, that is something that we very much come across a lot. Although not all of a building may be accessible there are parts that still might be accessible with small changes, with portable ramps, extra chairs. It’s not just about putting a wheelchair in; it’s about neurodivergence and the whole spectrum of disability. So, opening that up is kind of really important. 

NIKKI- Were going to talk more about that Jayne. First I just wanted you to tell me more about Wheely Haunted and what you wanted to achieve with it. 

JAYNE- I’ve got chronic illness which has really slowed my mobility down. As an investigator I still want to go out and investigate. I film, I put onto YouTube. Wheely Haunted kind of started because I was in my own powerchair. I don’t want to stop what I do, what I love. 

NIKKI- And what got you into it in the first place, like the paranormal? 

JAYNE- I was a weird kid to be fair. I was always interested in ghosts. Children were reading storybooks, I was looking at ghost books; so, it’s always been a fascination. There’s not been a time that I can remember that I haven’t looked for ghosts in some way or another. 

[Clip]

JAYNE- So, if there’s anybody here we’d love to converse with you. I wonder if you could tell us your name? My name is Jayne. What are you called? I was here a couple of weeks ago with a friend of mine and we heard you, so thank you for that. We know how difficult it must be. But if we know your name we’d know who to talk to. 

[End of clip]

NIKKI- I love that. So, how long have you been doing this for now? 

JAYNE- I think I’ve been seriously into the paranormal for about 18, 20 years, but going back to sort of like I think I was 14 when I got my first set of books; I think they were called The Unknown. 

NIKKI- I’m sure everyone asks you this question, Jayne, so I’m sorry to be really boring, but have you ever seen a ghost? 

JAYNE- Yes.

NIKKI- Have you? Who was it? 

JAYNE- The most compelling was three of us, we’ve got this little place that we hire for research. Our first time there we weren’t expecting to see a ghost, well we weren’t expecting anything because there’s been no reports of hauntings at all. And there were three of us there, we heard like little shufflings, like someone shuffling with a pair of slippers on. 

NIKKI- That’s how I walk, Jayne, to be fair. 

JAYNE- There were only three of us in this building in the dead of night and we heard these shufflings, so I went to have a look. I just stood there, I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. The next investigator came down and joined me, she saw the same thing. And then the third investigator came down, we all saw this black tall figure, it was matt black and it was just stood there for about 15 seconds, disappeared. We asked each other what we had seen and we all said at the same time. And it was just phenomenal. That is probably the most phenomenal moment that I’ve experienced. 

NIKKI- And you couldn’t make out who it was, it was just a matt black figure? 

JAYNE- A black figure that actually blocked out the light, because it was probably about six and a half foot tall, so it blocked out the light bulb behind it. 

NIKKI- Have you ever seen any more ghosts?

JAYNE- I have seen things. I would like to say yes, but the sceptical side of me says, is that psychological, I don’t know. 

NIKKI- Oh okay. 

JAYNE- But the fact that we’ve got three of us seeing the same thing was just mind-blowing. 

NIKKI- We’ve got a clip here from one of your ghost hunts in Bodmin Jail where you think you’ve heard footsteps. 

JAYNE- We were investigating. We had the old naval wing to ourselves, which is like a whole cell wing. From one end to the other I think there are about 20 cells. And we were asking out, and I said well, if you are here then you know, step forward and come and walk towards us. So, I’m mooching around taking some footage and I hear some noises, and it sounds like footsteps. We didn’t catch the first step. 

[Clip]

JAYNE- Did you hear footsteps?

[End of clip]

JAYNE- And I said, ‘Did you hear that? That was incredible!’

[Clip]

JAYNE- Did you hear that?

FEMALE- Yeah.

JAYNE- Where was that? Thank you. That just sounded like someone just walked from one end to the other. Did you hear it?

FEMALE- Yeah, I can hear footsteps. 

[End of clip]

JAYNE- I flip around, we hear it again. But we hear the footsteps coming towards us. [Footsteps] And you can clearly hear what is like a wood sole or a hard sole coming up on stone flooring. 

[End of clip]

FEMALE- That was heavy footsteps. 

JAYNE- Yeah, thank you. 

[End of clip]

JAYNE- It is just phenomenal. 

EMMA- So, does it sound like a prison officer back when that was a jail maybe walking the length of the cells?

JAYNE- I don’t know what the original flooring was, but I assume it could be. It could be anyone or anything. 

EMMA- And are you especially attuned to make contact with these spirits or could myself and Nikki give ghost hunting a try?

JAYNE- Oh, I definitely think you could give it a try. I’ve seen sceptics go into a location and come away crying. 

NIKKI- I’m easily terrified, Jayne. My scooter makes a bit of a squeak – I don’t know if you can hear it now – and honestly every day it scares me. And I know it’s coming. I’m terrified. If I heard shuffling footsteps on the floor I think I’d probably have a heart attack. Also going back as well, Jayne, to the accessibility that we touched on at the beginning, explain what you can do to get more people with all kinds of disabilities into this kind of thing. 

JAYNE- Sure. So, when I go round and review a location I’m not just looking for wheelchair access, I’m looking at the steps, I’m looking at where seating may be, quiet areas where people can kind of peel off, low stimulation, high stimulation, everything across the board really. It could make all the difference. 

NIKKI- Thank you so much for joining us Jayne. It’s been really lovely to meet you. It’s been really interesting so thank you so much. 

JAYNE- You’ll have to come on an investigation with us. 

EMMA- I would love that. 

NIKKI- Oh my goodness, we should do that with the podcast actually. 

EMMA- Maybe if it’s not too cringey, Halloween?

JAYNE- Yeah, that would be great. 

EMMA- Or if we say Halloween Jayne would you be like, oh for goodness sake, not Halloween? 

JAYNE- [Laughs] not at all. 

NIKKI- Thanks so much Jayne. I tell you if you fancy going along ghost hunting we’ve got an invite there, Em. 

EMMA- I think why not? Give it a shot. 

NIKKI- I’d be terrified. I’ll be clinging onto your leg. 

EMMA- [Laughs]

NIKKI- I will. I will!

EMMA- Why my leg?

NIKKI- Because it’s a good height for me, Emma. Come on now. 

EMMA- What will I do, grab your hair?

NIKKI- Yes, you can hold onto my head. I will grab your leg. 

EMMA- Excellent. And then someone take a picture and it’s all over.

NIKKI- Perfect. Well, this has been Access All for another week. Thank you so much for listening. Now, you can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds – I had to think about that then – but you can, BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have one of those fancy smart speakers with that famous lady…

EMMA- The A lady. 

NIKKI- Oh, hello A lady. You can say, ‘Ask the BBC for Access All’. 

EMMA- We are also on BBC Sounds, as you said, as a podcast, but not only that we’re on 5 Live so we’re on your radio in the middle of the night. Keep it on when you go to sleep and we might pop up in your ears. 

NIKKI- No, just get a good sleep, don’t do that. Joking. Until next week everyone, bye.

EMMA- Bye. 

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER- You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast. 

CLIP- Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP- You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP- At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody. 

PRESENTER- We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP- I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER- And we talk to the best BBC journalists, asking the most important questions: 

CHRIS- What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos? 

CLIP- Don’t start me, Chris. 

PRESENTER- That’s Newscast from BBC News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news. 

CLIP- And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP- Listen to Newscast every day on BBC Sounds. 

CLIP- I’m glad I asked that. 

CLIP- I’m very glad that you asked that!