Election interviews: The Green Party, Reform UK and Plaid Cymru’s disability policies

27th June 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Election episode 04

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA-           Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is the BBC’s weekly disability and mental health podcast. As part of Access All’s General Election coverage we have invited representatives from the UK’s seven main political parties to take part over several episodes. We’ve been putting your questions and your concerns to them, and we’ve been exploring their policies around disability and mental health. On this episode we speak to Mags Lewis from the Green Party; we interview Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru; and we’ve got some analysis from the manifesto or Reform UK who did not put someone forward for an interview.

MUSIC-           Theme music.

EMMA-           First up it’s Mags Lewis from the Green Party. Thanks for joining us, Mags.

MAGS-            Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

EMMA-           Now, I’m going to give you 45 seconds, Mags Lewis, to tell us a bit about yourself. Are you ready?

MAGS-            Yes, okay.

EMMA-           Okay go.

MAGS-            Well, I’m Mags Lewis. I’ve lived in Leicester since 2000 and I came here for work. I’m a busy mum of two. I’ve got MS. And I’ve been involved in politics and the Green Party since 2007.  I think once I had my daughters I just became a lot more environmentally conscious, and I was pretty disappointed with the Labour Party having worked in the NHS and seen the ruination of PFI, private finance initiative, and so I wanted to give something back and work for political change for the environmental cause and social justice.

EMMA-           Okay, thank you so much. That is quite hard thing to do Mags, in fairness, and I know you’ve got MS which can involve brain fog and stuff like that, so thank you so much for taking that challenge for me. We have some questions that we’re asking all the different political parties and the first one of those is, how many disabled candidates are the Green Party fielding this time?

MAGS-            That’s a good question. I’m not sure of the entire number because a lot of our people they may have neurodiversity but they don’t necessarily identify as disabled, so I don’t know off the top of my head how many of them are to be honest. I mean, obviously I’m disabled and I know of at least five more candidates who do have a disability, but I don’t know the overall number. But I would say it’s fairly significant because we have quite an active disability group within the Green Party.

EMMA-           So, the Disability Policy Centre thinktank has been doing some work on this and they’re saying that so far it’s about 4% of candidates in general over all the parties. Would you say you guys are more than 4%?

MAGS-            Yes, I would say so. Obviously I would have to do proper research, but I’m aware that a lot of people who may identify as being neurodiverse etc, but wouldn’t actually, as I say, identify necessarily as a disabled person. Obviously disability is such a wide umbrella.

EMMA-           Of course, yes.

MAGS-            So, many people that may choose even not to declare it. Obviously with MS there are some mental issues or, as you say, brain fog, but also there’s the physical side. But even with MS so many people have a different journey, and I know I didn’t identify as disabled for several years.

EMMA-           That’s a really good point. The next question that we’re asking everyone is, has your manifesto been produced in different formats like easy read? We were spooking to Mark Brookes recently who has a learning disability, and he was saying how important that is. So, has your manifesto been produced in formats like easy read, and has it been done at the same time as your regular manifesto?

MAGS-            As far as I’m aware it has. I mean, it’s quite an important issue for me. We’ve worked hard as, I used to be a member of the disability committee, to try and make sure that for example when we had conferences there were always signers there etc. and we made it as disabled friendly as possible.

EMMA-           But you’re not certain?

MAGS-            I can certainly check, but as far as I’m aware it is as inclusive as possible.

EMMA-           Well, I have found an easy read version. I don’t know how to find it on the website, but if I put it in the search box it does come up, so that is available as far as I’m aware. Now, one of the things that so many of our listeners have been writing about since we asked them to tell us what they want us to talk about in relation to this General Election is Personal Independence Payments, disability benefits and the fact that there was a consultation launched on changes that might be made to that benefit a couple of weeks before the election was called. I just wondered from the Green Party’s perspective what are you intending to do around disability benefits? Because the welfare bill is going up, every party recognises that. It’s a difficult one, isn’t it?

MAGS-            Yes it is. But one of the pledges within our manifesto is to restore the value of disabled benefits, because I think we’ve recognised the disabled community is being hit particularly hard so we want to raise them immediately by 5%. The other thing we want to do is reform the punitive and intrusive eligibility tests, because we’ve heard PIP has been reformed in the past but there always seems to be a dot, dot, dot because there are people abusing the system or they’re shirking etc. And then when you actually look at the number of people who appeal and the appeals are upheld it just feels like it’s really designed to cause as much stress as possible.

EMMA-           The rate of the welfare bill is going up so much though, and there are new people applying for disability benefits all the time and more and more for lots of different reasons. How would the Green Party fund the 5% rise that the manifesto says is going to happen if you got into government?

MAGS-            We’re being probably the most honest [laughs] I would say of all the parties and we’re saying we’re going to have seek tax rises. So, we’d be looking at windfall tax on some fossil fuels etc. We’d also be looking at taxing the billionaires, the most able to bear the tax at the top. So, we’ve got a programme of doing that. So, I’m quite proud that we’re looking at that, we’re saying that there’s an issue and we’re looking at who can best bear the taxes. So, we’re looking at the windfall tax and then the highest earners.

EMMA-           Let’s talk about mental health now, Mags. You mentioned creating a legal framework that supports the rights of those struggling with their mental health to be respected. What does that mean? What will that mean for people with mental health difficulties in practical terms?

MAGS-            I think it’s more about making sure that people understand what their rights are, but also what’s out there in terms of being seen in a timely fashion. At the moment everyone talks about the crisis in mental health and people aren’t able to access the services they need, so it’s being a lot more clear about when they should be accessing what they’re allowed, what they’re entitled to.

EMMA-           Would you bring in the Mental Health Bill or would you look at it quite differently to that?

MAGS-            I don’t think there’s one size fits all. For me I think there’s been such an onslaught from so many angles; we need to be looking at having a Mental Health Bill, but also looking at how services are provided and the knock-ons of that, and making sure even housing is accessible obviously from a physical point of view, but also a mental health point of view as well.

EMMA-           Yeah, that’s interesting because I was reading about housing in your manifesto and in the version I read for sure I didn’t see anything about disabled housing. And that is something that a lot of people are very exercised about. It was on local radio this week and someone was saying they hadn’t been able to have a shower for four years.

MAGS-            Yeah, I’ve got a case in my constituency where we’ve got a gentleman who’s an amputee and he can’t get a wheelchair in his home, and he has been told he has to declare himself homeless to have any chance of getting up the housing ladder. So, the Greens we want to build another 150,000 social houses a year, and part of that we would be saying that we would want to make sure that a good proportion of those at least were accessible.

EMMA-           So, basically you’re saying that you recognise that there’s a massive issue around housing and disabled people and waiting lists and grants. In terms of education you said you want to provide adequate support in schools for neurodivergent children and for children with SEND. That feels like that’s an entire change of the education system, doesn’t it, in some ways; there’s so much going on there. What would you propose to do?

MAGS-            Well, one of the things I’m really passionate about is the SEND transport for 16 to 18 year olds. So, at the moment councils should provide transport but they don’t have to, and that’s a loophole. And so you’ve got families whose children turn 16 and they’re being told no, you don’t qualify for your taxi anymore, you have to get your child to your school. So, we’re saying we would change that to make it that councils must provide transport for children from the age of 16 to 18 with special educational needs.

EMMA-           What about social care? You’re saying you’d provide free social care. Scotland has that in but people still struggle to get the packages they need. In the UK we speak to people all the time in England who struggle to renew their packages and get the same level of care that they had, it goes down massively. I mean, how would you fund that? It feels it’s a massive £20 billion you say you’d put into that; where would that come from?

MAGS-            Well, again we’re going to be looking at raising taxes, but very much target it at the rich and those who are most able to bear that. And we think it’s about investing to save really, because at the moment people are on waiting lists for so long and there’s so much bureaucracy, it’s costing the entire economy and all of us and our mental health hugely. So, we need to be doing things much earlier and that will be overall more cost effective and better for people.

EMMA-           Finally, Mags Lewis, in a nutshell what will the Green Party be offering for disabled people on 4th July?

MAGS-            We’ll be offering a really positive package of support and care for people to be able to live the lives that we all deserve to live, because at the moment we’re being vilified, there seems to be a lot of distrust. So, I’m really excited about the offer for disabled people. And as I’m a disabled person I’m really pleased to be a Green Party member and standing for election.

EMMA-           Mags Lewis from the Green Party thank you for joining me.

MAGS-            Pleasure.

EMMA-           Listening to that interview with Mags Lewis from the Green Party was Kate Lamble. Kate is from More or Less, our sister podcast which tries to make sense of the numbers around us. She’s heard the interview and she’s been looking into how it all adds up:

KATE-             So, when Mags Lewis was talking about housing she said the Green Party wanted to build 150,000 social homes a year, a good proportion of which will be accessible. Now, with these pledges we’ve got to bear in mind that the current government has previously struggled with house building, consistently missing the targets it set itself in 2019. And that’s something which has in the past been put down partially to issues with the planning system. In fact in 2022/23, once we take into account demolished homes, only around 270,000 homes were built or created by refurbishment across the UK. And less than a third of the homes created in England were classed as affordable, let alone social, so there would likely be a huge challenge to achieve this.

But the bigger issue with this claim is, despite what Mags said, the Green Party’s manifesto doesn’t actually promise to build 150,000 social homes a year, just to provide them. And it specifically includes ideas to allow local authorities to buy or refurbish older housing stock instead of building new ones. Now, of course older homes are less likely to have been built at a time when accessibility regulations applied, and so without work they might be less accessible in terms of, say, door width, plug height and other things which are today kept in mind.

EMMA-           Thanks to Kate Lamble there for her analysis of the Green Party’s plans. Now, Kate will be back after this interview with Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru:

                         Hi Liz, and you’re very welcome to Access All.

LIZ-                  Hi, Emma. It’s great to be invited to join you.

EMMA-           You’ve got 45 seconds, Liz, to tell us about you.

LIZ-                  Okay, I’m originally from London. I’m the first woman ever elected for Plaid Cymru. In relation to disabilities I use hearing aids now, which actually can be quite challenging. And we firmly believe in fairness and ambition for people in Wales and to make sure that Wales is properly funded to enable people who need support to live lives that they deserve.

EMMA-           Thank you very much. That’s below the 45 seconds but if you’re finished that’s totally fine. How many disabled candidates are Plaid Cymru fielding for this election? Actually the Disability Policy Centre says zero, but you’ve already told me that you use hearing aids, so.

LIZ-                  Well, I use hearing aids. We’ve certainly been encouraging disabled candidates. We have a disabled group Plaid Cymru Anabledd for which we’re trying to develop people to come forward. But I recognise that it is challenging for us and it is something that as a party we should be making every effort to make sure that people can come forward.

EMMA-           Okay. And your manifesto has it been created in different formats and at the same time as your printed or regular manifesto comes out?

LIZ-                  I believe that it is available for better accessibility online. And when we launched our manifesto of course we had somebody there who was doing signage as well.

EMMA-           Now, your manifesto says that you’re planning to deal with the waiting lists for neurodiverse diagnosis and cut those down, and give more support to people as they present themselves as neurodivergent and if they’re referred by a medical person or if they self-refer. How would you go about doing that and how would you fund it?

LIZ-                  To take a step back with the funding of course, because this is crucial for many aspects of health support and support for disabled people in Wales, we would argue very strongly that Wales is not funded according to need. We have what is called the Barnett Formula, it’s been in place since the late 70s; we’re always being told that Wales is funded to a greater level per head than England, this is true, but we’re not funded as highly as, say, London is. And also very recently there’s been a step towards addressing needs-based question with the funding for Northern Ireland. Now, for Wales this is highly significant because we have an older population, we also have health issues that are common to post-industrial communities. And if Wales were funded according to need that would then enable us to boost our NHS. There are other questions in relation to the NHS as well and the priority that is accorded to patients and patient’s needs, which I think isn’t just a matter of funding, it’s a matter of culture and approach. But nonetheless we really want to see this shift happening towards recognise patient’s needs and people who present with neurodiversity. And as things stand they’re not best served. But of course we need the funding, and then we need to recruit those staff members, the actual clinicians, the health members, the care staff that we need to enable this.

EMMA-           We hear a lot of stories here on Access All about members of our audience, our listeners waiting for a long time for diagnosis and not hearing anything or getting what they need while they’re waiting. Would this be some sort of a pathway? How would the policy work?

LIZ-                  Believe me the questions, and I get this with obviously a whole range of health conditions when I’m out canvassing as I am, when I’m not talking to you today, and this sense of frustration – I’m sure this isn’t just Wales alone, so I’m speaking about the area that I know – but this sense that the patient is not foremost in the way that health services are provided. And then the implications of that for those people’s lives being so immense. There is something about the culture, and I can only speak here about Wales, but that sense of you have to wait so long before you even get into the system, and then you cannot contact people, you can’t find out what the results of your tests are. Just to speak of my own hearing aids now, since the COVID era if I have to have another hearing test I have to wait six months before I have another hearing test.

EMMA-           Can we talk about mental health? Because that’s something else we speak about a lot on the podcast, and listeners have been getting in touch with us for a few years now about the Mental Health Bill that has been consulted on, has been we thought it was about ready to go. And you have said that you would support the reform of the Mental Health Act as it is. What would that mean for people in Wales?

LIZ-                  We are very concerned in the way that people with learning disabilities particularly can be sectioned and then placed into hospital settings which are not appropriate for them. That’s something that we can see is happening in Wales because the right sort of support isn’t there. Frankly, this is a breach of human rights in the way that this is being used. And I’ve also seen actually the way that people with mental health issues get brought into the criminal justice system as a result for, say, mental health wards just not being able to cope with people, and that being inappropriate on occasions, well very often quite frankly. So, how we deal with people, how we support people, avoiding this what should be the absolute last stage, the last resort of the criminal justice system is I think quite crucial.

EMMA-           How will you do it? And how long will it take, do you think, to make that better?

LIZ-                  That’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? Again, it’s a cultural approach. If you’re dealing with health boards who are just using this as a way of engaging with their own staff and engaging with people’s needs from the patient’s, from the individual’s needs point of view, rather than approach that possibly this is a way of getting them off our books, off our responsibility, off our cost and onto somebody else. There’s a shift that needs to go back into prioritising the best interests of individuals and away from the best interests of public sector organisations. It has worsened since COVID frankly.

EMMA-           That’s so interesting, you mentioned the COVID-19 pandemic quite a lot, and actually none of the other party representatives has mentioned it in our interviews, so I find that really interesting. And another big effect was on employment during that time. Wales has quite a big disability employment gap, doesn’t it? How would tackle that and how would you get more disabled people in Wales who can work and who want to work into work?

LIZ-                  I’ve just been looking today at statutory sick pay, of course you have to be at the threshold of I think it’s £123 a week even to be eligible for that. And we know that this particularly affects women and that it particularly affects I think there’s about a million workers in the UK who don’t qualify for statutory sick pay, and of course a third of those are disabled. So, if you’re facing a prospect of are you going to have to stay in work even if you’re ill, we need these support mechanisms, the safety nets.

EMMA-           So, you would up statutory sick pay and change the parameters?

LIZ-                  It always surprises me that there is a threshold whereby it’s evidently the poorest people in work are going to be the ones who are going to be worst affected, least supported by statutory sick pay.

EMMA-           Okay. Now let’s talking about the cost of living and the cost of living crisis. It’s really disproportionately affected disabled people, as I’m sure you will know. What would Plaid Cymru do for disabled people in Wales?

LIZ-                  We have to find a way now of reducing energy costs within certain communities. Now, Ofgem to me has a duty at addressing standing charges, because what I do not understand why the energy companies should be able to charge less where the population is higher. Because of course it’s cheaper for them, but that then disproportionately affects some communities which may well be amongst some of the poorest communities in the United Kingdom. I’m talking about North Wales and Merseyside.

EMMA-           So, the regulator has a job to do?

LIZ-                  The regulator has a job in making sure that those at the energy companies, who of course should also be fair, paying windfall taxes when they’re making extraordinary amounts of money on the backs of customers. We should also be looking I think, and this is quite an exciting I think here locally, about those areas which produce energy. And I have one scheme up here in Northwest Wales, a hydroelectric scheme, working with the energy retailing company, Octopus, where the energy that is produced from this hydro scheme is sold to customers, consumers locally more cheaply. Now, that’s really exciting.

EMMA-           So, that’s a good example?

LIZ-                  That’s a really good example.

EMMA-           Liz Saville Roberts, you’ve been with me for around ten minutes, tell me in summary what will Plaid Cymru be offering disabled Welsh voters on 4th July?

LIZ-                  I think firstly from Plaid Cymru we will never treat disabled people as a political punchbag, which is what we have seen happening in this General Election. We will continue to challenge disability discrimination, and we will make sure the voices of people with disabilities and neurodiverse communities those voices will come through. So, fundamentally we believe in that compassionate system. And then of course we have to say more than that; we have to find ways of making sure that people get a better service through the health service, that their cost of living, the costs that they face are as affordable for them. And that as a society as a whole we look, it is a real old Welsh tradition, that everybody in the community, supporting each other according to their needs. And it’s essential that we get people’s voices through, and it’s essential that we reject these politics of divisiveness, of demonising people when we should be supporting them within society.

EMMA-           Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru, thank you so much for joining me on Access All.

                         Kate Lamble is back now from More or Less to tell us how those plans from Plaid Cymru add up:

KATE-             Okay, Liz Saville Roberts was talking there about funding, and she says Wales is funded less well than London. Government figures do show us how much public funding different areas of the UK receive per person. It shows Wales receiving £13,967 per person, which is lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, but 11% above the UK average. England as a whole receives £12,227 per person, so Wales is above every English region apart from London. London gets £14,486 in public spending per person, and per resident that is the highest in the UK. However, we’ve always got to think about what drives this spending. For example, water companies are in the public sector in Scotland and Northern Ireland but not in England and Wales. And part of London’s high figure is because the capital, ironically or not, receives the highest capital spending in the UK. This investment largely driven by spending on transport and in particular the railways, which benefits not just people who live in London but those who travel in to work. If we excluded that and we only looked at current expenditure on services then Wales has higher funding per resident than London, even though it’s historically been more expensive to hire staff and provide services in the capital. And we’ve got to remember that per head London pays twice as much as Wales into the public purse. Rightly or wrongly our economy relies quite heavily on London, so it’s perhaps not surprising that it receives a significant chunk of funding.

EMMA-           Thanks to Kate Lamble there for her analysis. And Kate will be back after BBC political correspondent, David Cornock’s rundown of Reform UK’s manifesto:

MUSIC-

EMMA-           Now, we asked for a representative from Reform UK to take part in our election special interviews, but they didn’t have anyone available to come and talk to us. So, instead the BBC’s political correspondent, David Cornock, is with me from Millbank to talk about what the Reform Party have in their pledges for disabled people for this General Election. David, thank you so much for joining me on Access All.

DAVID-           It’s a pleasure. Great to be here.

EMMA-           And David, you have been reading through the Reform UK manifesto, what have they got in there for disabled people and people with mental health difficulties?

DAVID-           Well, it’s an interesting manifesto because first of all they refuse to call it a manifesto because Nigel Farage says that manifesto means lie and people don’t trust the promises in a manifesto. So, his programme, if you like, his contract with you the voter gives an outline really of what Reform are about. And that means maybe fewer detailed policies for individuals and others, but more a hint at their sort of philosophy, where they’re coming from.

EMMA-           Well, David, it sounds like there’s nothing or very little specifically about disability in this what they’re calling a contract. Apart from I believe there is one mention in the area of benefits. Now, our audience are very anxious about potential changes to the disability benefits and out-of-work benefits. They have been told many times that the welfare bill needs to come down. What is Reform saying about this?

DAVID-           Well, Reform do want to reduce the welfare bill. They say that the benefit system is broken and would need change within the first 100 days. They want to get more people on benefits to find work. They say that they would change benefit support and training to help people back into work, which they say would be critical to improving mental health. Now, in terms of other benefits Personal Independence Payments, PIPs, and Work Capablity_ Assessment, those assessments should be face-to-face say Reform UK. And the manifesto or the contract with you says, will require independent medical assessments to prove eligibility for payment, but those registered with severe disabilities or serious long-term illnesses would be exempt from regular checks. Now, that’s about as detailed as it goes, but you can sense the direction of travel there from Reform UK.

EMMA-           Absolutely. And people would worry about face-to-face assessments, people who struggle to leave the house etc. Now, Reform have focused in quite a lot on the Equality Act, which is how disabled people might bring a disability discrimination case. What have they said about that?

DAVID-           Well, they would scrap it, this is the 2010 Equality Act, and according to Reform UK this act requires discrimination in the name of positive action. So, they would scrap it. They would scrap diversity, equality and inclusion rules that they say have lowered standards and reduced economic productivity. So, again a limited amount of detail in this programme, but you get where they’re coming from on that I think.

EMMA-           Another topic I’ve been talking a lot to the other parties about is social care. There are massive issues around that for disabled people who need personal care assistants at home. What are Reform UK saying that they would do to change that system?

DAVID-           Well, what Reform UK would do would be to commence what they call a royal commission of enquiry into the social care system. Now, royal commissions we’ve had them in the past, they’re sort of grand committees of the great and the good to look on a non-partisan basis at these sorts of issues. Fair to say that when it comes to social care we’ve had commissions before commissioned, I think there was one under Tony Blair’s government, there was one under David Cameron’s government, looked into social care, put forward some very concrete proposals, which turned out to be quite expensive and complicated, and that means they haven’t really been delivered since then. But certainly Reform UK think that if they set up another royal commission maybe it would deliver.

EMMA-           David, it’s a real shame that Reform UK couldn’t put anyone forward for this interview. But I’ve been asking the other parties what they would do to fix how disabled children get extra help at school. Was there anything mentioned about that in the Reform manifesto?

DAVID-           Well, that is obviously a very big issue in terms of support for children with special educational needs and disabilities. There is nothing in Reform’s manifesto on that, but it does say that critical educational reforms are needed in the first 100 days. And their priority would be what they call a patriotic curriculum in primary and secondary schools in England, and they talk about teaching past British and European imperialism, and they would also ban transgender ideology in primary and secondary schools, with no gender questioning and so on. So, you get an indication there of Reform’s priorities, but they don’t appear to include issues with children who have special educational needs and disabilities.

EMMA-           David Cornock, BBC political correspondent, thank you for joining me on Access All.

MUSIC-          

EMMA-           Thank you to Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru, and also to Mags Lewis from the Green Party. Thanks go to David Cornock, BBC’s political correspondent for talking to me about Reform UK’s manifesto. And thanks also go to Kate Lamble from More or Less who analysed all the facts and figures. We already have episodes on your Access All feed with the Conservative Party, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National Party.

                         Well, that’s it from our political party interviews. I hope that we have given you some insight into what each party is thinking in terms of disability and mental health. If you’ve anything to say about the interviews we’ve put on your feed this week please do get in touch in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, you can get us on WhatsApp on 0330 123 9480, and you can find us on social media, we’re on X and we’re on Instagram @BBCAccessAll. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.

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ADAM-            Hello, it’s Adam Fleming here. If you’re listening to this it means you’ve made it to the end of this episode, which means you might like episodes of our podcast, Newscast, where at the moment we’re focusing on the UK General Election. With the help of my broadcasting best buddies, Laura Kuenssberg and Chris Mason, we pick apart the big stories of the General Election campaign each day, and we try and work out what’s really, really going on. We publish episodes every day, sometimes more than one, and that means that you are guaranteed to be up to date. Listen any time on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.