#MillenniumLive: Crafting Personalized Work Experiences for the Future with Inclusively
In our #MillenniumLive podcast episode with Conor Tuohy , Charlotte Dales , Co-Founder and CEO of Inclusively , and Ryan Loken , Head of HR Policy Administration and Governance for Tyson Foods shared their insights into how the future of work is being shaped by the pressing need for personalization.
“We have a Success Enablement Framework with around 75 data points mapped to employee pain points and companies’ existing services, policies, benefits, etc. So when employees engage with our product, they're able to input anything about themselves [such as anxiety or personal issues], and get served up accommodations and relevant company resources—be it mental health benefits, counseling, or any other support,” said Charlotte.
This framework not only identifies gaps in existing support but also evaluates the effectiveness of current investments–bridging the needs of employees with what companies offer.
Ryan added, "Supervisors, managers, employers have to really talk with people about what is important to you, now? And it's not a forever answer. It's what's important to you today, this week, this month, this year. And companies need to be prepared to adjust as the needs of the individual change."
The episode underscored several important trends impacting today's workforce:
Ryan emphasizes, "I think technology and other things are going to drive us to truly be a Choose Your Own Adventure book when it comes to work. And you will have the optionality to make those decisions based on the pros and cons."
As businesses navigate the evolving landscape of work, embracing personalization isn't just beneficial—it's essential. The future of work, as envisioned by industry leaders like Charlotte and Ryan, emphasizes flexibility, technological integration, and a profound understanding of individual needs. By making strategic investments and leveraging expert partnerships, companies can create enriching and productive work environments that cater to the diverse workforce of today and tomorrow.
🎧 Listen to the #MillenniumLive podcast here for more insights and discussions on the future of work!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:
Conor Tuohy 0:03
Hello, and welcome to the Millennium Alliance podcast. I'm your host, Conor Tuohy, and we have an awesome human resources and benefits leadership episode to share with our audience. Today, we'll be focusing in on how the future of work is personalization. Joining the podcast with me are two amazing guests. We have the co-founder and CEO of our partner today, Inclusively, the workforce solution helping companies elevate workplace accommodations from a compliance reporting function to a competitive advantage and create a more equitable, productive workplace for all. Charlotte Dales. Charlotte, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here.
Charlotte Dales 0:44
Thank you, excited to be here.
Conor Tuohy 0:46
An interesting story about Charlotte is that her cousin Cameron became the first licensed esthetician in the state of Florida with Down syndrome. And after witnessing Cameron's career fulfillment, she became passionate about replicating her employment success story for disabled talent and started inclusively under Charlotte's leadership. inclusively is proud to be modernizing recruitment by creating structure and transparency around accommodations benefiting all job seekers. Our second guest, I'd like to welcome Ryan Loken. He is the head of HR policy administration and governance for Tyson Foods and has over 20 years experience in the HR industry through his work in HR partnerships, talent development and acquisition. He's maintained a maniacal focus on team member experience and developing HR professionals. He has served large organizations with geographical differences and has honed his skills and identifying the unique needs of the team members that help them perform at their very best. Ryan, welcome to the podcast, it's great to have you here as well,
Ryan Loken 1:56
Thanks, Conor. Appreciate it.
Conor Tuohy 1:58
Three main points that we're going to be focusing on for this conversation in particular, is that an HP study recently found that only 27% of knowledge workers currently have a healthy relationship with work, that the modern worker wants to personalize their work life. And lastly, we explain how companies can do this at scale without causing operational chaos. Knowledge workers are not happy, they're not satisfied with work and the work life balance that they're having. And, and that study really shows that and this came out on the heels of a Gartner report to which said that on so nature of workers, and then the employee, employer relationship is is the biggest issue that's facing HR leaders today. And it's a big topic that we discuss at the Millennium conferences as well. So, you know, I posed the question to you both what's going on here? What have you seen in your respective roles in your respective industries? Why are some people just unhappy at work?
Charlotte Dales 3:03
I can jump in and get started. You know, I think we think about this a lot. We started as a hiring platform for people with disabilities, so helping them to do what would make them more productive and successful on the job, and then enabling employers to respond to those things. And you know, off the heels of sort of the market trends that you just described, we realized that actually the process we were we were building solve this larger problem of how do you meet and address the individual needs of the workforce in a way that scales. And I think the pressure that's really started to, you know, make this not just something people are talking about, but something that people need to really figure out how to tackle is the next generation of the workforce millennial and Gen z's. They're now over 50% of the workforce, and really have been since I think 2016. But this generation grew up in a highly, highly, highly personalized environment. They grew up in education systems, where they were diagnosed more frequently, with learning disabilities, mental health challenges, they became accustomed to advocating for themselves in the education system, and so their entire workforce with the same demands, and I think COVID just accelerated all of this. And, you know, now there's sort of a lot of pressure on this system to change.
Ryan Loken 4:21
I completely agree with that. I think, I think some of that goes back to also how we communicate about these things from an HR perspective, because like Charlotte said, we're working with over 50% of the workforce that is comfortable being their own advocate and identifying what their needs are, what they need actually to be successful. And so that's a paradigm shift, right? Because in the past, the company or your employer would outline for you here's your career roadmap, meet these objectives, you'll be promoted, etc, etc. And now we're we're in a framework where people are telling us I can be productive to some degree, but I can be even more productive, if we make these changes, and I can be ultimately productive if I do this. Because we're working with two generations that know themselves better than any other generation has. So I think that's, that's first and foremost. And then second one I had mentioned about how we communicate in HR, you use the word earlier kind of work life balance, and it's something that you have been in HR for 25 years. And it's something we've always talked about. But I think we got it wrong in some cases, because there's not really a balance a balance implies, that is going to be 50% work, 50% life. And that's, that's not always true, because that pendulum shifts. So it's more like a teeter-totter, if you will, sometimes at certain stages of life, you're more focused on work, your career purposeful work, meaningful work, those sort of things. And in other stages, you might be more focused on your life, think about the stages of life, or somebody just gets out of high school or gets just because out of college, when they buy their first home, when they have their first child, when their child when their children move out of the house when they're getting ready for retirement. All of those things have a different work life mix. And I think we need to really take that into consideration when we think about how people are performing and how and what drives success if won't always be a balance. And we need to look to not only the employees, but the employers on being able to communicate effectively on what is the right mix for each individual at this time, going back to the personalization that Charlotte talked about. And I think there's a lot of companies out there. And I've seen a number of articles from companies that say these things. And they say that we want, they want to work with a work life pendulum, they want to meet employees where they are they want to do all these things, it looks great on a piece of paper. But that has to be communicated all the way through your organization down to your frontline supervisors, your introductory managers, etc. Because I think that communication gets lost between what's in the press or what a company puts out as a tagline versus what really occurs on on a day to day basis within a company.
Conor Tuohy 7:07
Those are some great points, both Charlotte and Ryan, thank you, I think the biggest thing it could come down to is about that productivity and having flexibility PWC stat, it's interesting that CEOs believe 40% of the work in their company has wasted productivity. And I really kind of I want to dive into that with the both of you. Because to me, I'm not sure what wasted productivity even means if you're being productive at work, what no matter where you are, it shouldn't matter. If you're working in an office at the HQ in New York, or you're somewhere in the middle of the country. I think it produces a lack of trust, really at the at the center of this problem. And so when we're talking about flexibility, and productivity, kind of going hand in hand kind of finding that balance. I'm sure that when some CEOs hear the word flexibility, they picture the employee wasting time at home, and perhaps not being completely focused on the task at hand. So, you know, if they're not thinking that flexibility and productivity can kind of coexist. I'm interested in hearing both of your perspectives on what to make of this. Again, there's not going to be a 50/50 shot, as you mentioned, Ryan, but how do you really achieve the true flexibility of work and productivity?
Ryan Loken 8:26
I think it's a couple of things. And I'm probably I could go down a ton of rabbit holes. And Charlotte, clearly this week about a few things and, and I could we could go really deep, I'll try to keep it a little bit surface level, first and foremost, on the 40% of CEOs that believe that work is being wasted or unproductive. That's a top line statement. But you always have to drive, dig deeper into the data and really understand what they mean by that. Because because there's a number of things that contribute to lack of productivity, I would struggle to tie that directly to flexibility because it could be structural, right? Maybe you have duplicate of jobs. They're providing the same work for minimal outcome, maybe so maybe it's a structural issue. Maybe it's a mission issue. Maybe CEOs believe Hey, we got to get back to fundamentals for our company. And they believe that people are being allowed to work on projects, which are novel or interesting, but don't tie directly to the fundamentals, right that could be perceived as wasted work or unproductive. So I think we really got to dive into the details of what what they really mean by when they say 40% of its unproductive. I don't I don't think it's all flexibility. I think there's a number of things that contribute to that to that number. And so when we talk about flexible when we talk about flexible work compared to productivity, I don't know that many companies dive deep enough into what that means and how to carry it out. Because when I've when I've talked to leaders in a variety of companies, or done some benchmarking why talk flexibility they immediately think working from home. Well, that doesn't necessarily, that's not the only version of flexibility there is. There could be shift exchanges, right? There could be, there could be job shares, there could be, you know, when flexible work, think about projects, and being able to sign up for the projects that align most closely to your ideals. Your views are what you get most passionate about what gets you excited about work, there's a number of things that are involved in flexibility and personalizing the work. And I think when if you want to look at it from a production standpoint, we need to get better as an industry or as a as a, I guess, employer base across the club here, we did get better in setting goals, measuring goals, and, and aligning on what the outcome is, and spend less time focused on where the work is conducted, but more time measuring the actual output? And is the work that's being done, aligned to the goals and strategy of the company? Are we measuring that work? Can we measure that work? And are we looking at the results, versus just looking at the flexibility piece, because I think if you measure it, and you adjust your goals over time, you can provide flexibility, because you're no longer worried about where somebody's sitting, or where somebody's typing on a keyboard, but you're focused on the actual output that's going to drive productivity and revenue for your company.
Charlotte Dales 11:24
Yeah, and I think flexibility can also be flexibility in the benefits products, services policies that you offer, not just having a one size fits all approach. That's another way to offer flexibility that doesn't have that doesn't actually, you know, impact like where you're working, but more just what are you providing to people in addition to the role itself, that's flex that, that has flexibility in it, meaning, you know, it's meeting the needs of one person as well as the other person who have different needs. And I think that the other you know, we always hear from employers, well, if we, you know, start doing this, we're just going to open a huge can of worms, but I think realistically, we all know that can of worms has already been open, and what shutting the door and not being open to talking to these, you know, having these conversations is not the answer, it's it's figuring out what you are comfortable with, creating guardrails, and, you know, companies don't have to be everything for everyone, that'd be impossible. But I think that they actually have a lot more to offer than what employees see on the surface. And so being able to actually help people find those things based on their own unique needs is really important to flexibility as well.
Conor Tuohy 12:41
I want to talk a little bit about Gen Z, because I think that they get thrown under the bus for a lot of this. If you think about it for a second, these, this is also the same generation that had to be sent home during college or school and didn't get to graduate with their and walk down an aisle like that, like everyone else gets to do when they're entering the workforce, it's assumed that they are asking for all these benefits, including that flexibility of working from from home working remotely, wherever, wherever you want. But I also beg to differ that they don't want to being in an office and being included in socializing and that social aspect of an office because I don't think it's always the case with Gen Z, you know, I think there's definitely a good argument to be made that older workers would also prefer to be working remotely and, and working from wherever they they'd like. So I just saw an interesting article about how they're actually the ones who want to be in the office, you know, what do we make of this? I mean, I think there's definitely a good discussion around Gen Z and how they're transforming work. I just don't think that you can blame them for for also wanting to be in an office and, and also, they're the only ones that want to work remotely and have that flexibility.
Ryan Loken 14:02
I think it's I've got a pretty personalized, if you will, exposure to this. So my, my oldest son, the day he turned 18 was the same day that the world can I shut down we all started working from home March March 13 2020. Right, and my youngest is about to graduate high school now. So I've got some really intriguing information around Gen Z. And I think when we use the generational markers like Gen Z or millennial or what have you Gen Xers it's too blanket of a statement it breeds a stereotype or it breeds a one size fits all mentality. But so when I think about where my kids are, and then I've read the article, I think the same one you're referring to about Gen Z and flexibility. There is a craving that Gen Z has maybe to not work in a cubicle right but to be able to work with people come elaborate with people connect with people so they can build because they're just entering the workforce. So they can identify those mentors, identify those people that have been successful, how were they successful, so they can grow their own careers, build relationships, and network so they can so they can build their careers. I think in that same article, they're highlighted how Gen Z wants to be in the office, but they want the flexibility to personalize their their workspace. And that's why you see a lot of cubicles for Gen Z that are decked out, whereas my generation, you know, we had a laptop, a desk, maybe one picture the family, and that was it, right? But they're really trying to personalize their space. So they want to come kind of a balance of this is my place to work. This is where I learn, this is where I grow, this is where I contribute, and I can connect with others. In that same article, I believe they touched on the fact that it's actually a Gen X that wants to work from home, more so than Gen Z. And if you think about it, though, that's also the coding generation, the group that says, Hey, man, I work on code, I do this work, I could do it from anywhere, I could do it in my basement. And we kind of joke about that a little bit. But it's kind of true. So they're the generation that is actually wanting to work from home more. So when we talk about flexibility, it stretches across all of the generational types, I think we need to take a closer look, we talked about personalizing things, we need to take a closer look at stage of life versus the specific generation. Because when you think about where Gen Z is, and we talk about it, they're entering the workforce, and they're going to have a pivotal impact on how work is done. We had the same conversation about millennials back in 2000. Right when they're graduating high school, etc. So it's stage of life, I really go back to this, supervisors, managers, employers have to really talk with people about what is important to you, now? And it's not a forever answer. It's what's important to you today, this week, this month, this year? And companies need to be prepared to adjust as the needs of the individual change.
Charlotte Dales 17:06
Yeah, I agree. And it's, you know, kind of when you think about how people are talking about disability and mental health, particularly in the workplace, mental health is something that you could have due to situations, you could struggle with it, you know, more indefinitely, but it's the same thing where you know, it's life, it could be life stage triggered, or life event triggered. And I think that's one of the, you know, companies just need to have a more flexible infrastructure and be able to adapt. And I also think, just in in relation to Gen Z's in particular, as I said earlier, you know, they just grew up with mental health being more of a discussion than past generations. And so I think, you know, as Ryan said, Gen Z's sometimes get thrown under the bus a little bit and but it's like, they didn't just wake up one day and become super different from everyone else in the workforce. Like, there's things about their upbringing that are significantly different. When it comes to the technology, the advancements that were made, they all never remember a time without email, without Netflix, without personalizing their entertainment at their fingertips. And so I think it's not that people, you know, in other generations didn't want flexibility, it's that this generation is just more vocal about making it happen.
Ryan Loken 18:27
I just want to jump on what you're saying that they grew up, like you said, they grew up with all the technology. And it's not just that they're more vocal about their needs, through their upbringing, and through the technology that's been available to them. Gen Z has an expectation that their employers will provide some type of tailored option. So I think there's a lot of companies out there that have partnerships or access to a ton of resources, whether it's for mental health, whether it's for wellness, whether it's for other aspects, and I think Gen Z has grown up in an environment where based on their behavior, based on their feedback, information has been kind of curated for them, right, everything from their Netflix, what they watch on Netflix to what they purchase on Amazon, there's always been a for you page, or recommended items, right? generations before didn't have it
Charlotte Dales 18:58
Advertisements are different.
Ryan Loken 19:21
Right? Advertisements are different. So how do we get companies to a place where where based on the feedback that Gen Z or their employees as a whole are providing, companies start to push these tailored solutions to employees? That might be a bigger discussion, but it'd be a fascinating one.
Conor Tuohy 19:39
I think all of these topics that we're hitting on it could be definitely expanded into more broader discussions, but I feel like both again, both you bring up really great points. Charlotte, you bring up a great point about you know, mental health and how on how Ryan you kind of mentioned that these expectations are kind of now set in stone. They want jobs that are going to at least bare minimum offer those benefits, have the flexibility. And when it comes to mental health, time away from the office, those mental health days, but also working remotely could certainly affect your mental health in the same way, and that you kind of need that interaction and need that time and, and that bond that you form in an office setting. And I think this is a great segue into why there's been such an increased attention on work personalization, and I'd love to dive in with you to hear about, you know, what some of the things, some of these macro things and societal things that are going on, that are that are addressing work, personalization?
Charlotte Dales 20:46
You know, we started talking about this around like tailored experiences. And I think what we're seeing is, you know, especially with what we're doing, we're not creating a whole new system for employers, a lot of things, they already have a lot of products, services, note taking devices, technologies, etc. It's just that people don't necessarily understand what solutions are out there to address the pain points that are experiencing, and companies don't necessarily know, to connect a lot of the things that they've already they're already doing to to address some of these needs. So I think what we're seeing is, you know, people are, you know, trying to figure out, not just why would I disclose that I have a disability? Why would I disclose that I have anxiety, you know, to my employer, if I don't actually know what the solution is. And on the other side, this disclosure requires me to say something very personal about myself with very little transparency on the other side. And so I think the way we look at it, and the way we work with companies is allow people a place where they can sort of figure out what it is that they might explore at the company as a solution to some of the pain points that they have serve up things, you know, that you already have, that they might not have known about, you know, benefits are completely underutilized at most companies. And so why don't we kind of give people a way to explore some of the pain points they have, and opportunities there might be to address those in a way that's really discreet? I think that's a big part of it. And then I think, you know, another thing that we're seeing is that these annual pulse surveys, you know, by the time that data has been analyzed, it's time for the next survey, and almost the results are stale. So how do you figure out ways to get real time data that you can actually action upon within an appropriate amount of time, because, you know, technology has drastically sped up a lot of things. But if you think about email that took 10 years to penetrate, you know, and become a ubiquitous solution at organizations where as ChatGPT and generative AI took about 18 months. And so people aren't as patient as they were, and employers don't have as much time as they once had to sort of react slowly, they kind of need to develop ways to be able to start making micro changes in real time.
Ryan Loken 23:11
Completely agree to the micro changes in real time, I think there's an age old phrase that said, that says something to the effect of don't sacrifice good waiting on great. I think companies do that sometimes. They want to wait until they have the perfect solution or the best solution or by the time that solution is ready to launch, the dynamics, the environment, something's changed, or that solution is no longer great. So we need to be able to pivot in the moment and make adjustments. But going back to some of the some of the macro changes. And some of the things that Charlotte said about disclosure. I know this is easier said than done. It would be idealistic, if we could get all companies to engage with their employees, the way companies engage with customers. So I'm going to, I don't know if I'll get in trouble for calling this out or not. But I look at look at being a consumer of Apple as an example. Someone who has a visual impairment doesn't need to disclose to Apple, that they have one. They can just turn on us a turn on an iPhone and turn on a tool called Voiceover that Apple already has on board and they can start using an iPhone. They don't have to disclose to Apple that they have another disability with fine motor skills. They can pick up an iPhone, go to the accessibility settings and adjust them to their needs. They don't have to disclose to Apple that they have a hearing a hearing disability. They can go into Apple that I think the big question is how do we essentially make sure employees know all the resources that are available to them through their benefits plan through their through their benefits programs, so they can choose the one that best aligns with them? Because that takes if you do that it takes away the anxiety of reporting to your employer your disability status. Because if the solution is right there, and you can start leveraging it, much like the Apple example I just gave, there's no need to disclose.
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Conor Tuohy 25:20
But these are you're seeing more tailor experiences and helpful solutions that are kind of tailoring to the employee that's only going to increase employee satisfaction, it's going to increase retention. And of course, it's going to lead to increased productivity. That's a good point to hit on now, is that when we have solutions that are available, it's it's sometimes a challenge of where do employers begin? Solution, what programs are really good, and that's that can be implemented not only quickly, but efficiently? Those challenges are what I want to talk about next. And I think both the probably some really interesting, not only stories, but but case studies to share about the challenges that leaders are facing today, especially when they're transitioning to more personalized work environments. So start with you Charlotte, being somebody who's in charge of a solution, and offers this this personalization of work, where do the challenges that you're seeing really, really meet at a at a point where that your, that your company is addressing?
Charlotte Dales 26:31
One of the biggest challenges that executives have is how do you operationalize this into the company? So people all know that this problem exists now. And I think in the past two years, it's really become very acute. But it's not something that, you know, executives can solve in a vacuum, there's 10s of 1000s of employees that many companies that need, you know, that it needs to actually be driven through sort of a heavier middle layer. And so I think one of the things that, you know, we focus on is, what are the areas in which you know, you, you are able to start collecting the data the fastest. And so, I think a lot of times people are scared to get started. But if you have, like, what we have is a framework that you can go off of, so you can look at, you know, 75 to 100, different, you know, accommodations, or we call them Success Enablers that are available, you can just start to see, like, what do we actually have? And you typically will have a lot more than you think the majority of these things are free, or maybe a one off cost of $300. And when you really start doing that exercise, I think it does help people to see how possible, it really is to create change in a way that it's not this big, heavy lift immediately throughout the company. I also think some of the things that we've seen successful at companies where we roll out is, you know, go to your ERGs like pilot this with your disability ERGs, your, you know, accessibility your neurodivergent, you partner with the people that are already trying to generate change, and they're going to be the most likely people to give you data, which gives you a really good base level of like, okay, here's what we have, here's what people are happy with. Here's things that people, you know, identified a need for that we don't have. And, you know, here's low hanging fruit that we can actually, you know, before we launched this more ubiquitously have a solve for and also looking at the other investments you're making and see what is underutilized. And can you redirect. So I think trying to sort of chunk it out for people where it's not this big change you're gonna make across the whole organization with lots of consultants coming in, it's really just kind of getting started is the easiest way to move the needle. And there's really small things you can do that will have a very big impact.
Ryan Loken 28:57
Exactly. I think one of the things that probably prevents people from moving forward is just the sheer fear of the what if, and as the what ifs around administration, and as the what ifs around fairness. Because I think there's people draw conclusions from time to time and by offering flexibility and variety of services meeting team members where they are. There's one a huge administration opportunity because companies don't always have the infrastructure to support it. They may have all of these resources available in one way, shape or form, but they're not in one collective repository, or easy look easily locatable? And they're not always broadly communicated. So there's the administration fear, and then there's the the fairness or possibly perceived inequity of if a if Person A is getting this benefit, but Person B isn't does that created inequity? And my argument there would be, well if Person A is utilizing this benefit, Person B can decide if they want to utilize it or not. Because it's they're offered to both, right, but it's just your utilization will tell the story of what's needed by your employee base. And to Charlotte's point, I think companies have to start somewhere, you can't boil the ocean, you can't take on everything at once. But start somewhere, start with something, communicate a program, communicate a tool, communicate a benefit, and then measure your utilization and then expand from there. I think we sometimes cripple ourselves across the employer base with analysis paralysis, and we just get, you're fearful of the sheer administration of it. But if you start with one thing, and build upon it, before you before long, you'll actually have a pretty tailored customized experience for your team members.
Charlotte Dales 31:02
Yeah, and I think one of our biggest objection in sales is, we're not ready yet. And I think that is very indicative of what we kind of both were just saying, which is, well, when are you going to be ready? Because, you know, this generation of the workforce, and all other generations are already expecting these things. And you don't have as much time as you think because those companies that are addressing this, they're going to be the companies that are attracting the best talent for the years to come. And if you, if you wait too long, you're going to be it's going to be even harder to catch up.
Conor Tuohy 31:36
Yeah, not that they're not ready. But are they ready to make the plunge? That technology has definitely played such a role in being able to drive this forward. And something that Inclusively really prides himself on is, is doing it at scale? So that could also be the another challenge? How do you possibly can do this at scale? Because, you know, you're talking about different solutions for different people, that catered and tailored experience sounds like a logistical nightmare. So curious, Charlotte, how not only of how this is possible, and how companies can really, really get the most out of a solution like this. But how does Inclusively provide these solutions?
Charlotte Dales 32:24
So we have what we call a Success Enablement Framework. And it's about 75 different data points that are both mapped to pain points, people can experience and then mapped to the company's existing products, services, policies, benefits, etc. So when employees engage with our product, they're able to input anything about themselves, they can say, you know, I have anxiety and I have trouble concentrating in meetings, they can, you know, say that they're going through a divorce, whatever it is that the pain point is that they have, we're deducing what pain points they have, and serving up what accommodations, benefits services, products, policies, mental health benefits, counseling, benefits, everything that could ladder up to that pain point we're serving up for them, and showing them where they can access it within the company. So the way that we do this at scale is employers are able to build this framework out themselves. So they can say, we actually have a mental health benefit, here's where you go get it. And they're actually filling out all the content that's getting served up on our platform. And that's sort of how we're able to also, in real time, start to collect data, not only on what our pain points that are getting identified, where we're serving up something that we don't have, and how frequently is that happening, but also, how are people reading the things that we do have, because that's also another issue, which is, are the investments that you've already made, doing what you're intending them to do for your employees. So it's really about creating a framework that sits in the middle of both employees and their needs and employers and what they could be offering or do offer.
Speaker 1 34:03
The only thing I have to add about how to do this at scale, is to partner with people like Charlotte. I mean, because here's the here's the here's the real, the reality of the situation. We've seen it for for decades, where companies identify a problem or a challenge, they will try to build the tool, build the resource, build the infrastructure, build the things in-house, because they want to be a differentiator in the industry, they want to make headlines. Well, what happens when you do that is you end up building the right solution 20 years too late, as just the reality of it. And so if companies want to truly scale, it really wants to truly dive into this. It's going to take partnering with companies like Inclusively to that have the knowledge that have the technical support, the the technical expertise, and have learnings from other companies that they can share. You cannot do something like this at scale without collaboration.
Conor Tuohy 35:06
Yeah, that's a great point. Charlotte, you definitely touched upon this briefly just a moment ago. But that question of Are You Ready? I think that's going to cost some organizations, not only productivity, which is in the end revenue, but it's also the cost of losing quality employees, it's the it's the risk of having more burnout and increased tension in your organization, it's that risk of falling behind others that are already making this leap. So potentially, are there any other risks of not doing this? Clearly, the benefits are definitely outweighing the risks,
Charlotte Dales 35:49
There's a huge cost to doing nothing. There's quiet quitting, and a decrease in employee engagement. And that all leads to productivity and retention issues. And then you know, the companies that are doing this word is going to get out, it's going to be a huge differentiator for them. And you're going to struggle to attract and retain the best talent, if you're perceived to be behind the curve on this. This isn't just are you using Slack? Or are you not? You know, how, what kind of cool technologies are you using, this is people really caring about the intersection of their personal lives and their professional lives. And that's way more important to people than having a ping pong table in the office and all these other things. So I think it's very, very important moment in time that people are like, kind of standing up for, you know, I used email and you know, as an example before, but if you think about it with email, and with the ability to work remote and the ability pre-COVID, to log into your computer to check your work, email from home, that actually created a huge pendulum swing in the employers favor. Now everyone could just be connected all of the time. COVID swung it back the other way, where people thought, Okay, I'm connected all the time but I'm also getting all of this flexibility. And I just think there's a huge just because of, you know, what has happened not in just the past five years, and with this next generation, but with COVID, as well. It's become a really acute problem. And there's a huge cost to like the next five years, what talent you're gonna attract, with people coming out of university now, especially since there's AI and there's all these new skill sets that companies now need that we don't have enough people for, you have, I mean, there's just going to be a huge war on talent, again, as they say, set after COVID. And I think this is truly the key to unlock both productivity of existing retention and attracting new.
Ryan Loken 37:50
Not doing something here creates a huge missed opportunity. Things like the ping pong table, or free soda, and all the novel things that we saw post or pre pandemic, all those novel things are short term, right? They're kind of gimmicky, like, oh, that's nifty. So they, they go work there. But they may work there for six months or a year because that novelty wears off. This, the missed opportunity here is the opportunity to truly build interpersonal relationships with your employees, by understanding what their needs are, where they're at, in their career in their personal journey, understanding and recognizing when their needs change, and customizing things. So they can not only be top performers or productive now, but continue to be productive with your company as time goes on. To me, that's the biggest risk here. It's that missed opportunity. Because without that without building that deep relationship with your employees, it to Charlotte's point, it's, you're going to have retention concerns. But additional turnover, you're going to have you're going to struggle to find new employees and recruit talent and you're going to end you're going to continuously be revamping your onboarding and your development programs because you'll be trying to adjust for the the total or the majority versus making those micro adjustments person by person.
Conor Tuohy 39:21
I think you have to accredit them and millennials to this renewed expectation of what they want out of work and what they want out of their employers and they want a workplace that has accommodations similar to a personalized education systems and and you know, they're looking for workplaces that support diversity, mental health and learning disabilities. As you both were mentioning this desire for personal work experiences, how are they influencing workplace expectations as we know it?
Ryan Loken 39:53
I think it's influencing the how work gets done. We talked about it earlier, being able to Focus on the results and the the outcomes. And I think it's, it's starting to dry conversations in a small way around what things are or where can flexibility be offered, what's optional, what's not optional, right, you're starting to, we're starting to see more and more of those conversations that employers are having with their employees around, maybe your work hours can be adjusted. Maybe the technology you use can be adjusted. Maybe your benefits are a bit more cafeteria style than signing up. For one holistic, we're starting to see that across employers. And we're starting to have the conversation around what's not negotiable. Timelines on delivering services or products, or results to customers. Those are non negotiable, right? But the how you get there might be, and I think we're starting to see actually, when he talks about the influence of this has on the future of work. It used to be once upon a time you joined the workforce and was, here's your 50 page playbook on how to do your job, do it this way, every day exactly that way. And you'll be fine. And yeah, maybe we're fine. But by having the dialogue now, in people being able to conduct the same work, but in different ways, and have similar or better results, we're seeing employers focus on they're starting to very slowly focus on the results versus the how you get there. And we're we're learning from each other. You see it in, in meetings and other things where someone says, Oh, you do it that way, I should do it that way, that would be so much easier for me, but based on my style, so that that's what I'm seeing is more of the focus on results versus on how you get there. And that clarity on what's what's flexible, and what's non negotiable.
Charlotte Dales 42:04
I guess the other piece, I would say is that when we started this company, our company, we we were looking at sort of inclusion, and how do you get more people with disabilities into the workforce and learning so much over the past five years about, you know, DEI and how that's evolved. And ultimately, you know, what's interesting is that all these requests that are being made of the company and the evolving demands that people expect, if you create a flexible infrastructure, diversity just naturally emerges from that. And that just becomes something that is not only the right thing to do, and the good thing to do, but it's just something that will happen if you address the end of it, if you're if you are able to address the individual needs of people at scale. And if I've learned anything over the past five years, it's that people genuinely want to do the right thing. But in business, it's very hard to only do the right thing, you've got to have a business case for it to actually be sustainable. Otherwise, you'll see big booms in DEI, like we saw during COVID. And then you'll see everyone pulling back on it when times get tough. So what's exciting to me is that this generation that's placing these demands on the workplace, it's not just creating, it's not just something that employers have to respond to, it actually solves like a broader social equity problem as well. And I think being able to tie DEI to something much larger than just doing the right thing is is a win-win for everyone.
Conor Tuohy 43:37
I think before we wrap up, it's important to touch upon the difference between fulfillment and identity. And a lot of what employees get out of work is this idea of fulfillment, and many people are breaking away from their jobs being their identity and exchange for work. Instead of bringing fulfillment only a portion of the landscape that makes up their identity. It's just a part of them work is this but I am this. Obviously the pandemic played a major role in that and and how it's no longer Oh, I'm working in nine to five, I can do this project from this time to this time, I can pick up my kids from school, I can spend more time with them. And there's different ways to go about my day now. And those expectations are not only valid, but their expectation they're expected. So I'm curious to see what you both make of this and and what we're seeing about hey, I don't want to be productive. I want to get things done but i Please don't put me in a box of this is this is who I am. Ryan, I'll start with you about what what you're not only seeing yet in your role at Tyson Foods, the expectations of the fufillment between identity and your staff.
Ryan Loken 44:58
Yeah, I think there's a there's a couple avenues to look at here, I think, I think we talk about work not being your identity. And we've we've talked about that for some time through articles and newsletters and printed media. But yet, when whenever I travel, and I meet strangers, one of the first things they they do and introducing themselves is say their name, where they work and their title. So, so that leads me to believe now I do have a few people that don't write that I've met, but a majority. So I think there's still a strong connection that people have between their their work, and their identity, or their title and their identity, or the company and their identity, right. But I am seeing a little bit of a shift in that people want to work on purposeful things, they want to work on things that are tied to their personal passions. And so they can have a sense of pride in what they do. And if they have a sense of pride in what they do, and they're personally passionate about it, they're going to be more productive, and that that won't make up their entire identity. But it does become a section of who they are, right? So it does become a section. But they do want to be fulfilled, they don't want their identity to be defined by their work. But it is still a portion. So I don't think we're stepping away from that completely. But I think it is being minimized, which is a great thing, because we're all more than just one aspect, right? Our identities are on the flip side of that I've worked with a lot of people recently who are looking to retire or on the verge of retirement. And they're scared, because they've created when we talk about their identity, their their friends, group, their socialization, sense of importance, the things they're passionate about their sense of purpose, and their pride is all tied to that job. And then when they leave it, they're worried about things like, will I have friends? Will I have a social group? Will I have purpose? And so now that's, that's the generation that's retiring, that looking looking at the generation that's entering the workforce, I think you're still seeing a portion of that, but it only makes up a part. They may get their purpose from work, but their social needs are fed by other aspects of their of their life fulfillment of their passion through work, but their friends group has filled through other aspects of life. I don't think it's all one or the other, or I don't think there's a mathematical equation to put to it. But I do think that we're seeing people have work fill a portion versus fill their entire life.
Charlotte Dales 47:58
Yeah, another thing that we're seeing is that, you know, this sense of purpose that Ryan just brought up is really important to people. And I think what's interesting with the way work is being experienced now is that even if your company, your company's product or service or technology doesn't, you know, have an obvious mission impact to it, the way in which you work the way in which you lead, the way in which you bring, you know, certain people into the organization, the way in which you include people is mission and purpose driven in itself. And I think people are starting to pay more attention to, you know, I can have I can be working at a Tyson or credit card company, but also feel like I am contributing positively to like humanity and have purpose because of the way I am, you know, creating an experience for those who are working around me. And I think that's a really a really good way for companies to attach like, not every not every mission has to be so obvious in the product itself, it can be very obvious in the way that you treat your people.
Conor Tuohy 49:13
Well said. I'd like to end the podcast on kind of a wisdom-ish note talking a lot about the future and what we can sort of expect. And you know, the idea that we've been talking about today is the future of work. And I'd love to know, maybe take out your crystal balls and tell us what the future of work looks like. Obviously, obviously, we live in a pan post pandemic world, in the workforce where you know, this idea of it even its idea of hybrid, even at Millennium, they could have never predicted that we would not be in here five days a week from eight o'clock to five o'clock. That was unheard of and you know, now we have a very nice hybrid schedule that is conducive and works for everyone. We live in a world where there's work can be done from anywhere. But there's also different types of solutions on productivity that could be really helpful for employers moving forward. So really curious as you both are just not only legends of this industry, but our leaders in your respective organizations. So, yeah, I'd love to know some predictions on what work and life and what that will look like in the coming years, whether that be next year, or 10 years from now? I'll start with you, Ryan, of where you expect this, this all to go in the future.
Ryan Loken 50:40
Oh, man. You probably should have Charlotte might be the more pragmatic one here because I dream way over the top. So I think
Conor Tuohy 50:48
Good.
Ryan Loken 50:49
And maybe this is just my dream, right? Maybe this is just my dream. But I think so let's also keep in mind, not every company is where we are describing today, like everything we've talked about, not every company is there today. I mean, there are there are plenty of companies that are still Monday through Friday, eight to five in office. So I don't want to be disillusioned by that. But when I think about the future of work, if things come together the way I think they they could, I think that perhaps fast forward to maybe generation alpha, right, I think when they enter the workforce, it's it'll be a situation where everything is a Choose Your Own Adventure book. Literally, every decision will come with pros and cons. But it is a Choose Your Own Adventure book, you want a job that gives you want to pursue this thing that gives you this purpose, because you're a purpose driven person. Absolutely, you can do that. Here's the bite sized training for that. It'll take you three days, it'll be done through podcasts, etc. And here's the pay, you know, now you want and you want to choose a different adventure that's focused more on pay, because that's what drives you fine. But here's the consequences of that. I think it's going to be a world where we can have a variety of, of hybrid options based on the needs at the time. So certain meetings will require in person collaboration, certain meetings won't some of some time, and you'll be able to get your work done pre meeting in your driverless vehicle on your way to that in person meeting, right. Maybe even take a quick catnap, I think technology and other things are going to drive us to truly be a Choose Your Own Adventure book when it comes to work. And you will have the optionality to make those decisions based on the pros and cons.
Charlotte Dales 52:39
Mine's very similar. So I view the way this will work in the future is when you're looking for a job, whether you're coming straight out of college, or you're switching jobs, what you're looking for first is companies that provide you the things that you need. And then within that set of companies, you then look for the job where your skills match. So an example is I want to work at a company that has six months maternity leave, has flexible schedule has, you know, mental health benefits has all these things that I'm putting in my shopping cart, and then you're getting spit out. These are all the companies that meet those needs. Now go look for the jobs within that subset that match your skills. And that's why I really think companies are going to be fighting for talent. If they haven't moved the needle on this by then.
Conor Tuohy 53:31
Amazing predictions and suggestions and overall amazing conversation today. I really do want to thank my guests, Charlotte Dales Inclusively's co-founder and CEO. And Ryan Loken, he's the head of HR policy and administration over at Tyson Foods. Thank you both for just an engaging chat about the future of work and about personalization. And why it matters to have these discussions. And I also want to just thank Inclusively for for just being not only a great partner to Millennium but sponsoring this podcast episode. If you want a workplace personalization at scale for you is Inclusively find out more at inclusively.com or reach out to Charlotte she might know a thing or two. Thank you everyone and thank you to our dedicated listeners who day in and day out two times a week listen to this podcast, and we couldn't have gotten way past 250 episodes without your help. So thanks again and thank you again Ryan and Charlotte for being on the podcast.
Charlotte Dales 54:38
Thank you.
Ryan Loken 54:39
Appreciate it, thank you.
Millennium Live | A Leadership & Discovery Podcast
2moI'm thrilled with Inclusively's episode on The Millennium Alliance's podcast! Two knowledgeable and accomplished guests, both Charlotte and Ryan brought extensive insights to bring together a fantastic episode. Thank you for highlighting all the topics packed into this discussion on the future of work. #hr #millenniumlive