Phil
Joanou's career began with a phone call from no-one other than Steven
Spielberg, and his over thirty years in film have included such
triumphs as working with Spielberg on 3 O'CLOCK HIGH (1987) and his
Amazing Stories TV series, the U2 concert movie/ documentary RATTLE
AND HUM (1988), the New York gangster drama STATE OF GRACE (1990),
which featured electric performances from Sean Penn, Gary Oldman,
Robin Wright and Ed Harris, and his wonderful, underseen
autobiographical drama ENTROPY (1999). He has worked on a variety of
different projects over the years: the films FINAL ANALYSIS (1992),
HEAVEN'S PRISONERS (1996), GRIDIRON GANG (2006) and his current
release, the horror film THE VEIL (2016); promo videos with U2, Tom
Waits, Bon Jovi and Mariah Carey; Chris Tucker's live TV special
(2015); the PUNISHER short DIRTY LAUNDRY (2012), and TV episodes of
Fallen Angels, Wild Palms and the documentary series Up. In the third of a four-part interview I spoke to Phil about making STATE OF GRACE and FINAL ANALYSIS, working with Ennio Morricone, and working on TV with his memorable Fallen Angels episode and the U.S. version of the Up documentary series.
Phil on his early years and working with Spielberg.
Phil on making U2 Rattle and Hum.
My
editor and I took the movie to his studio in Rome. We both walked in
straight off the flight, with the film cans under our arms, and Ennio
was waiting for us in the lobby with his translator. He took one look
at me and said ''You can take the film upstairs to the projectionist
– I will wait for the director to arrive. '' Apparently he thought
I was a P.A. I will admit I didn't look much like a 'director' at the
time, as you can see from photos from that era. Anyway, I explained
that I was actually the director, and Ennio's face just dropped.
Clearly no one had told him how old I was, which was 28. I think he
immediately regretted he'd agreed to see a film made by a punk kid.
But then he pulled himself together (in a very gracious way) and we
went ahead and started the screening.
We
returned to the hotel, so disappointed. And then we got a call from
his producer, and Ennio invited us to dinner at his favorite
restaurant that night. We couldn't really figure out why he'd do that
... but of course we went. We had a very nice dinner, but he didn't
mention the movie at all – not until the very end of the meal. And
then he stood up, and made a toast: ''To STATE OF GRACE ... May we
make beautiful music for your film!'' My jaw just dropped. At first I
was just kind of confused, and I said ''You want to do the movie?''
He smiled ear-to-ear, and without translation said ''But of course! I
loved it!'' Now here I was, the entire night, thinking he was just
being polite, taking us out for a 'nice try' dinner. But he ended up
really wanting to do it. He's a very mischievous man, it turns out.
He was having a lot of fun watching us wonder what in the hell was
going on all dinner long. We all had a good laugh about that. We
discussed the movie late into the night. Lots of toasts and lots of
laughs.
I came back about a month later and went to his home, where he played me the main themes on his grand piano in his huge, marbled palazzo. It was amazing. He played me six different themes, and asked me which two or three I liked. They were all great, but I thought it might be interesting if we combined some and worked further on others. I could tell he was kind of taken aback – thinking I was just going to pick (as he had suggested) the ones I liked. But then the shock drained from his face, he smiled and I could tell he started respecting me that day because I had a real idea of what I wanted – not just for picking themes, but for creating music that I really felt fit the film. He loved that I wanted to get into it and work with him on the mood and tone of the music. I know that sounds tremendously arrogant – what on Earth was I doing 'collaborating' with Ennio Morricone? But when you live with a film for more than a year you really get to know its personality, its character, and in an odd way, you know what it would sound like and what it wouldn't. Anyway, we worked for a couple of weeks together and had a fantastic time. He's a ton of fun and very, very funny. Very passionate, as you could imagine. And I'm a pretty enthusiastic guy so we really got along.
After
that I went away and he wrote the score. When I returned, we went
into his studio and he played me tracks. We did some more work
together and then we scored. He brought in his incredible orchestra
and there I was in Rome, my film running on the big screen, Ennio
Morricone conducting. The first cue was the opening credits. He
tapped his baton, the film ran, and up came that lonely oboe. I'll
admit, tears came to my eyes. I was working with a living, breathing
master and I felt this work was Ennio at the top of his game. It is
an experience I will never, ever forget.
Phil on his early years and working with Spielberg.
Phil on making U2 Rattle and Hum.
What
was it like working with Ennio Morricone?
I had always dreamt of working with Ennio Morricone. And after the U2 guys were not able to do the score for STATE OF GRACE, I went to Orion and asked them if they'd be open to it (knowing it would be a long shot), and they agreed that I could go after him. We approached his reps and he agreed to have me come over to Rome and show him the movie in his screening room. I had only done RATTLE AND HUM and 3 O'CLOCK HIGH, so to this day, I'm not really sure why he agreed ... but I was thrilled that he did!
I had always dreamt of working with Ennio Morricone. And after the U2 guys were not able to do the score for STATE OF GRACE, I went to Orion and asked them if they'd be open to it (knowing it would be a long shot), and they agreed that I could go after him. We approached his reps and he agreed to have me come over to Rome and show him the movie in his screening room. I had only done RATTLE AND HUM and 3 O'CLOCK HIGH, so to this day, I'm not really sure why he agreed ... but I was thrilled that he did!
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The
thing was, I had temp-dubbed the film with a lot of U2 music and
other tracks (Peter Gabriel, Mark Knopfler etc) that were modern
sounding. As we started up the film and the music dropped in, Ennio
turned to me, very distressed and (through the translator) asked why
there was this modern music on the film. It ended up that he
preferred to screen early cuts without any music on
the track, but no-one had told us this. And not only that, he's
clearly a 'classical composer' and couldn't understand why I would
come to him if I wanted a modern rock 'n roll soundtrack. So here we
are, sitting through a two and a half hour version of the film –
with a ton of music in it – and he's miserable. I
asked if he wanted to stop, but he just kind of gestured to continue.
I was completely mortified as I could tell the screening was a
disaster. He even stopped asking questions for translation on certain
scenes. Once the film was over, he thanked us very nicely and said he
would get back to us ... At this point, I just knew it wasn't going
to happen.
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I came back about a month later and went to his home, where he played me the main themes on his grand piano in his huge, marbled palazzo. It was amazing. He played me six different themes, and asked me which two or three I liked. They were all great, but I thought it might be interesting if we combined some and worked further on others. I could tell he was kind of taken aback – thinking I was just going to pick (as he had suggested) the ones I liked. But then the shock drained from his face, he smiled and I could tell he started respecting me that day because I had a real idea of what I wanted – not just for picking themes, but for creating music that I really felt fit the film. He loved that I wanted to get into it and work with him on the mood and tone of the music. I know that sounds tremendously arrogant – what on Earth was I doing 'collaborating' with Ennio Morricone? But when you live with a film for more than a year you really get to know its personality, its character, and in an odd way, you know what it would sound like and what it wouldn't. Anyway, we worked for a couple of weeks together and had a fantastic time. He's a ton of fun and very, very funny. Very passionate, as you could imagine. And I'm a pretty enthusiastic guy so we really got along.
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At
the time, I think they thought I was as crazy as they were. I love
what I do so much that I'm willing to go as far as it takes in an
attempt to get it right. I am so ready and open for any kind of
questions or ideas or concerns. The actors can be ''This is awesome.
Let's do it!'' or ''I fucking hate this. I don't wanna do it.'' It
can be ''I want to do another take'' or ''I don't want to do another
take.'' I'm open to all of it. I think for a lot of directors,
directing is about control, and the mistake that they make with
really strong actors is that they try to put handcuffs on them, which
just makes them resist. They're not going to deliver their best work
that way. But they will give you amazing things if you if you open
the door to the barn and say ''Go ahead, run wild. '' And then, I'm
even willing to say ... ''No. I meant go WILD. Is that WILD? I want
to see you fucking GO.'' Next minute the actors are ripping chairs
apart and throwing them through windows. They're going crazy. And
that's what I wanted, and got on STATE OF GRACE, and the same was
true of Alec in HEAVEN'S PRISONERS. These guys love that sense that
you're totally there to support them and let them do their thing,
that you're there to push them, but that you know when to shut up
when they just want to do their thing without being pushed. I
think that's what they respond to with me. In fact the harder and
tougher actors come, the easier it is for me to get along with them.
I have always thought that the reputation that those actors you
mentioned (and others) for being 'tough' is simply their passion and
commitment to their craft and to the project. That scares a lot of
people because they feel that the whole thing is going to turn into
anarchy. But these actors, and U2, taught me to embrace the anarchy.
When Bono said fuck the film when we were shooting RATTLE AND HUM, it
was the right idea. It just wasn't technically doable because of the
way we had staged the show. But spontaneity and really going for it
is always the right idea. That rock n roll attitude of ''We
know what we are going to do but let's see what else could happen''
is antithetical to a lot of people when it comes to the filmmaking
process.
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With
Sean and Robin, absolutely. They met and fell in love during the
movie and it was a very tumultuous thing. It was so funny because
often it would mimic whatever the scenes were. So on the days when
they were supposed to be in love and charming with each other in the
movie, they'd often be the same offscreen, and on the days when we
were shooting Robin finding out Sean was a cop, they'd be arguing
offscreen too, yelling in the hallway about God knows what. It was
very intense, but then I'd interrupt and say ''Let's go'', and
they'd come roaring into the scene and it would be fantastic. Gary
would go home in his clothes from the movie and come back the next
day wearing them. He was sleeping, eating and breathing that
character. About a decade after the movie came out I was in a
dentist's office reading an interview with Ed Harris and he was asked
what the hardest character for him was to shake off after the movie
was over. He answered ''My character in STATE OF GRACE.'' I had no
idea. He went on to talk about how into their roles all the actors
got on the film. It was interesting because what you usually do on
movies to save money is that if you have someone like Ed Harris for
four weeks of a twelve week shoot, you'll do all his scenes first and
then he'll leave. But on STATE OF GRACE, everybody stayed the entire
time. We shot the film for real in practical locations, and on the
streets of New York, and the cast just ate it up. It was total mayhem
and a hell of a lot of fun. Best summer of my career by far.
Yeah,
I was scared quite a few times but I would never let it show. A chair
would go through a window or someone cut themselves or broke their
fingers because someone had twisted it in a fight scene. Sean
accidentally broke a guy's nose. People were flipping out. I just went
with it. Fake guns and knives were flying around. Ed Harris was
trying to scare John C. Reilly by pulling out a real knife when he
was supposed to be stabbing him with a rubber fake one. John got
upset – it wasn't safe and he thought Ed was really going to stab
him, which was the idea in the scene. Of course I called ''Cut!''
once I saw the real knife, and I kept taking it away from Ed, but
then he would come up with another knife. At one point he had a meat
cleaver, which to this day I have no idea where he got. I'd say ''Now
Ed, we can't use a meat cleaver on John.'' I would very calmly take
the meat cleaver from him and give him back the rubber knife. Inside
I was thinking ''Oh, God, he's gonna chop John C. Reilly's head
off''', but on the outside I had to look like it was no big deal. In
the end, the scene where Ed slashes John's throat turned out great
because there was so much tension in the air that night.
What
films did you look at when preparing the end shoot-out?
I
was inspired by THE WILD BUNCH (1969), the cross-cut ending of THE
GODFATHER (1972) and the staircase scene from Brian De Palma's THE
UNTOUCHABLES (1987). I really studied those scenes. I even brought
footage of THE WILD BUNCH to the set so the effects guys could see
how I wanted the blood to fly. It's like a Western. It's the showdown
you've been waiting for between these two guys. The minute Sean and
Ed meet in the film, you knew it was coming. A lot of it is how
great the actors were more than anything else. You just want to see
them go at it. John Ford said 90% of directing is casting. I think
he's right.
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David
made a tremendous contribution to that movie. It really was unfair
that he didn't receive a screen credit, but it is very difficult to
rewrite an original screenplay and get credit. You really have to
reinvent the script in order to get credit. He rewrote a lot of the
dialogue, including Sean's 'state of grace' monologue. He created new
scenes as well. While the structure of the movie was basically
already there, David influenced every single aspect of the movie. The
original writer, Dennis McIntyre, was a great writer and completely
deserves the credit he received, but I think they both contributed
greatly to the movie and David should have been up there too. David
and I had a great relationship. I would go to his home in Mount Kisko
and work with him on the script ... and just to be sitting in the
room with such an incredibly accomplished playwright was
unbelievable. It was another of those 'How did I get here?'
situations. And what makes it even stranger is, cut to 25 years
later, and his daughter Lily Rabe is one of the stars of my new film,
THE VEIL.
How
did you get involved with directing the American version of the TV
documentary series, Up?
When
I had completed RATTLE AND HUM, Michael Apted, the director of the
British Up series, called me up and asked me to come in for a
meeting. I had no idea that he was about to offer me the chance to do
Age 7 in America. Naturally, I jumped at the opportunity. I had seen
all the original episodes and was a huge fan of the series. It's
brilliant. I couldn't believe I was getting the shot to do the
American version.
It
was so amazing going around the country and really getting to know
the kids from all these different backgrounds. Each kid had such a
unique perspective on the world, and you could immediately see how
their educational opportunities, financial situation, home life and
geographical location had all contributed so dramatically to who they
were. I so loved interviewing the kids and filming their world, just
from a life-experience perspective , it was a one-of-a-kind thing.
The kids were so open and honest and trusting with me.
In
what ways did the series develop your filmmaking skills?
From
a filmmaking perspective what I loved the most was that documentary
filmmaking is so pure. You're not trying to impose a
point-of-view on the
filmmaking in any way, which is just the opposite of feature
filmmaking. It's your job to try and capture 'reality' as closely and
honestly as you can (even though that's impossible as once you turn
on a camera and point it at someone, it changes the 'reality'). You
have to keep your eyes and ears open at all times, looking for those
moments that represent the people and the situations you're
documenting. And what was so different was that in all my narrative
work, I'd tried to be as 'controlled' as possible. But in a
documentary, you just have to let go of that and be open to whatever
is happening and then find the story that comes to you. Going through
that process really opened me up as a filmmaker and I found myself
less rigid in my feature filmmaking after Age 7 in America.
How
were you personally affected when you returned seven years later to
document the kids in 14 Up in America?
I
was blown away by how the kids had developed. Each of them had grown
and changed so much, but at the same time, they were still the very
essence of who they were at age 7. this had also been the case in the
original British show. Mostly, who they were now were just more
enhanced and complicated versions of their 7 year old selves. I was
able to bond with them as people much more deeply once they were 14,
and some of those relationships last to this day.
Why
did you not direct Age 21 in America?
Unfortunately,
when it came along, I was on GRIDIRON GANG and they didn't want to
wait six months for me to be available. They had their reasons I
suppose. So they went with another director (Christopher Dillon
Quinn). I'll admit I was very, very
disappointed not to be able to do it. I felt like we had all made a
commitment to see the project through together (like the BBC had done
with Michael Apted) but it turned out it was not to be. The first
show won a Peabody and the second one was a huge success. So it was
really weird. I know a lot of the kids were disappointed I wasn't
there too. 21 Up in America was never released in the US, and in the
end the whole thing ground to a halt as they didn't even go back for
the most important year – age 28 – which should have come out in
2013. It amazes me because 28 Up was the installment that became
extremely famous for Michael, and it seems to me that they would have
jumped at the chance to at least get the American version to 28. But
they chose not to, and to this day, I don't know why.
I
had a great relationship on the film with the producer Chuck Roven,
who now does all the Batman movies. He's a great producer. Richard
Gere was a co-producer on the movie. The movie was the second most
expensive movie of the year for Warners, after BATMAN RETURNS (1992).
Richard was coming off PRETTY WOMAN (1990), and couldn't have been
any bigger. Although Richard and I got along, we just saw two
different films. That was the first time in my career where I ran up
against somebody who didn't share my vision for what we were trying
to do. It wasn't like north/ south. It was more a matter of tone. We
didn't battle during the shoot, but in post-production there were a
lot of arguments about how the edit should go, and it just made for
an unpleasant experience for both of us. We were both unhappy. It was
a disappointing experience because we had a pretty good script and we
had something that could have been better than it turned out. Several
times during pre-production I had asked to be released from the film
because it was Richard's project and I didn't want to stand in the
way. He had seen STATE OF GRACE and brought me onboard. But Warners
wouldn't let me off it so I ended up trying to make the best of it.
What
were the diferences in how you saw the film?
I
liked the script and I wanted to make a darker Billy Wilder/Hitchcockian thriller, kind of DOUBLE INDEMNITY (1944) meets VERTIGO
(1958), whereas I think he wanted to make more of a brooding romance
piece, particularly after the success of PRETTY WOMAN. So you have
scenes in the movie with him and Kim Basinger that are romantic and
kind of fluffy, when I wanted to do something more sinister and noir.
You can see a clash of tones in the movie in that in some places the
film can't decide what it wants to be. I think it's 80% there, but
the other 20% fights itself. That's where you see the more romantic
stuff like the love scene on the stairwell in the lighthouse. I don't
know what that scene was about. I was shooting it and saying to
everybody ''What is this? I don't get it'', which is obviously not
good. And of course that was the image that they used for the poster!
I had been so supported by everybody on my previous films and been
allowed to be very open and really guide the film in a way I saw fit.
But in this case I had to 'go with the flow' and it didn't sit well
with me at all. In all fairness I was immature and not ready for the
clash of titans that was fighting with big players like Warner
Brothers and a major star who was also co-producing and had all the
real power. I had been protected at Universal by Sid Sheinberg and by
Steven on my first film, I had been off with a band that trusted and
believed in me, and then I was protected and supported at Orion on
STATE OF GRACE. Then the real world of Hollywood came down and
slapped me around pretty good. Frankly, I didn't have the emotional
toughness to take those hits and get back on my feet. I was pretty
upset about it all and that didn't help the movie either. I'm just as
guilty of it not working as anybody.
Absolutely.
What was disappointing about something like FINAL ANALYSIS was that I
wanted to take old-school noir and apply it to the 90s. To some
degree BASIC INSTINCT (1992) did exactly that, but that film was way
more sexually driven. I wanted Richard's character to be a complete
anti-hero. Heres this shrink who sleeps with his patient's sister.
Its completely unethical. Its like DOUBLE INDEMNITY (1944), and he
gets himself into a dangerous situation and almost gets himself sent
to jail for murder. It's a story of hubris. But in the end what I
wanted to do didn't get to play itself out because it made Richard's
character unlikeable. The irony is that whenever Richard plays flawed
or villainous characters like in AMERICAN GIGOLO (1980), INTERNAL
AFFAIRS (1990) or ARBITRAGE (2012), he's fantastic. And that's one of
the reasons why I wanted to do it with him. I thought we were making
a movie like INTERNAL AFFAIRS (but with a shrink), and I was excited
to work with him. The idea was that Richard's character was going to
get what's coming to him. But that's not the movie we made. Instead
we have a character trying hard to do the right thing – even though
he's not.
Why
was Gary Oldman cut out of the film?
He
did five days on the movie and did several scenes with Richard. He
played a mental patient client of Gere's. He was so fantastic in the
movie that when we showed the film to an audience they wanted to see
a lot more of him. It threw the whole movie out of whack. His role
was just meant to be an off-beat supporting character, but audiences
were pissed off that he drifted out of the story and they didn't find
out what happened to him. Gary had exploded and everybody wanted to
see more of him onscreen, so I had to say to him ''Gary, I'm sorry,
but we're going to have to cut you out of the movie. You're too
good.'' He and I actually had a good laugh about it. I wish I had
kept those scenes becaause they were great. He was so funny in them.
He played a character who thought he was from another planet. You can
only imagine what he did with that.
Was
it fun to reunite with Gary again on Dead End for Delilah, the
opening episode you directed for the TV anthology series Fallen
Angels?
Yes,
I did that before HEAVEN'S PRISONERS. We shot it in five days. Scott
Frank did a great job on the script. Sydney Pollack's company
produced it. It was a lot of fun. Gary is really strong in that. We
had a really great collaboration going at the time. It's not on DVD,
but you can see it on my website.
By
comparison, you were asked to direct the last episode of Oliver
Stone's TV series. Wild Palms. How was that experience? Did
you feel pressure having the responsibility of directing the finale?
Wild
Palms was indeed a wild one. I was living in New York at the time and
I got a call out of the blue (as it always seems to happen) from
Oliver Stone. He told me about the show and asked if I'd do the final
episode. They'd already started shooting the series, but they hadn't
landed on who they wanted for the climax. I read the script, but it
made no sense to me at all so I asked them to send me the other
episodes so I'd know what the hell was going on. Once I saw them, I
understood them (a little) better. It was such an insane story, but
it was fun to do. The cast was fantastic, but just getting to work
with Angie Dickinson was a dream come true. People don't realise the
incredible career she had – starring opposite Brando, working with
John Wayne and Howard Hawks, Don Siegel, Arthur Penn, Sydney Pollack,
Brian De Palma ... not to mention her iconic work in television. She
was fantastic. In the end, I didn't feel a lot of pressure being the
director on the last episode because the whole thing was so crazy I
had no idea if it would work! But it was really well received and I was
glad I did it.
Does
doing TV episodes like these sharpen up your storytelling instincts?
Oh,
no question. It keeps you fresh, and to the point because you have to
keep it tight and keep it moving. That's a really, really useful
skill.
I spoke to Phil by telephone on 26th January 2016 and would like to thank him for his time.
Take a look at Phil's website, where you can watch some of his films, TV episodes and promo videos.
All photos are the copyright of Phil Joanou and cannot be reproduced without permission.
Interview by Paul Rowlands. Copyright © Paul Rowlands, 2016. All rights reserved.
I spoke to Phil by telephone on 26th January 2016 and would like to thank him for his time.
Take a look at Phil's website, where you can watch some of his films, TV episodes and promo videos.
All photos are the copyright of Phil Joanou and cannot be reproduced without permission.
Interview by Paul Rowlands. Copyright © Paul Rowlands, 2016. All rights reserved.
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