This is a very vague question that puts an undue burden on anyone trying to respond.

What is it that you have problem with? AP value on bolters? Armour? If you want to compare the values with other factions, then look at specific values and compare them.

What mode of play you talking about? For planetary conquest, they are superb. Probably the top faction.

In terms of staying power, they are second only to, arguably, Necrons and that's due to their unique resurrection mechanics. Marines have fairly high armour values, good health pools, and they have an easy access to healing. Their vehicles are quite tough, with a unique access to repair and buffs. You sure you are playing them well?

Originally posted by ♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔:

This is a very vague question that puts an undue burden on anyone trying to respond.

What is it that you have problem with? AP value on bolters? Armour? If you want to compare the values with other factions, then look at specific values and compare them.

What mode of play you talking about? For planetary conquest, they are superb. Probably the top faction.

In terms of staying power, they are second only to, arguably, Necrons and that's due to their unique resurrection mechanics. Marines have fairly high armour values, good health pools, and they have an easy access to healing. Their vehicles are quite tough, with a unique access to repair and buffs. You sure you are playing them well?

It's not vague at all. When playing as other factions, I notice blood angles are generally less durable, not to mention having lower damage values than, say, ork guns. It's not any problem; I was just surprised by how weak they are from what I heard about them lore-wise.

I actually agree. I play them on skirmish every now and then. I always
feel like they need some buffing up. It's like they fell out of balance
as the other factions came out.

Specifically, I would say they at least need some more durability some how.

Originally posted by Alfred_likethebutler:

Originally posted by ♔ Affable 7th Wave Teaboo ♔:

This is a very vague question that puts an undue burden on anyone trying to respond.

What is it that you have problem with? AP value on bolters? Armour? If you want to compare the values with other factions, then look at specific values and compare them.

What mode of play you talking about? For planetary conquest, they are superb. Probably the top faction.

In terms of staying power, they are second only to, arguably, Necrons and that's due to their unique resurrection mechanics. Marines have fairly high armour values, good health pools, and they have an easy access to healing. Their vehicles are quite tough, with a unique access to repair and buffs. You sure you are playing them well?

It's not vague at all. When playing as other factions, I notice blood angles are generally less durable, not to mention having lower damage values than, say, ork guns. It's not any problem; I was just surprised by how weak they are from what I heard about them lore-wise.

If we go by lore, single marine should be able to kill whole armies in this game. For that you need to go to game like Spacemarine or the upcoming sequel. Lore is also typically written from the perspective of Imperium, which is an unreliable narrator. In actual practical terms, an armour box with supporting Tech Priests is tough as nails. Very few things can breach that easily. I don't have a lot of experience with pure infantry marines, I typically play armour heavy marines, my guess infantry list be leaning into the sanguinary guard and overall jumpack aggression.

Originally posted by Alfred_likethebutler:

So are space marines super weak? I don't know Warhammer, but it seems like space marines are paper tigers. Is it lore accurate for them to be this weak?

I mean compared to other factions their guns or bolters are nothing compared to the other factions. and they die easy? Is this like the trial faction before trying more powerful ones?

Space Marines really aren't that remarkable on the tabletop - they do get 2 wounds which is unusual for infantry, but otherwise their stat-line is "alright". Taking the tabletop as gospel, it's not surprising that the Marines line infantry would take heavy losses, though less so than obviously weaker fodder like Gaunts or Sisters.

"Lore accurate" space marines would make for a very dull game, as one Space Marine puts down an entire 2,000 point list without ever putting his helmit on...

When it comes to points, you get what you pay for - and squads of Space Marines aren't really all that expensive.

Firstly, have you played through the campaign on at least Astartes difficulty?
You can start to get a feel for what weapons are efficient against what targets so you're not having a ton of Bolt Rifle shots wasted deflected off a Tyrannofex armor.

If you think Space Marines are squishy, I wonder what you think about Tyranids (or Astra Militarum when they come out.) Most factions seem to have numerous ways to instantly kill a squad of Termagants. Several even have ways to do it as a free action on cooldown.

Lore accurate Space Marines would be pretty cool...so long as I got lore accurate numbers of Tyranids. Let me literally black out the skies with Gargoyles. ;P

Lore accurate Space Marines are all over the place. As someone who has listened to a lot of audio books I'll say that they kind of suck in most stories. If it weren't for a few books here and there, I always had a strong impression that Space Marines were more mascot then soldier. They get gunned down pretty easy in most books and often lack any strategy.

There's two types of lore accurate.

First, accurate to 'fluff' books. Like any hero with plot armor, the main character space marines will murderize the hell out of everything. This is not very representative of general space marines, however (they are often the 'space marine captain' hero unit which really is far, far, FAR superior to regular space marines.).

Second is accurate to their tabletop presentation.

They absolutely are accurate to their tabletop presentation. They are the regular foot soldiers of the main faction and they are basically on par with other factions' equivalents.

With that said, they are better than ork boyz, necron warriors, etc.

You can check out wahapedia for actual unit stats in tabletop, if you're curious.

I dislike the constant discussion around the dichotomy between "lore" space marines and "tabletop" ones.

Space marines shouldn't obliterate whole 2000 point armies, but they also shouldn't be mediocre. It's the job of the game designer to strike a balance that evokes the power fantasy of a faction like the space marines in a satisfying way, without making the game unplayable.

It shouldn't be a choice between overpowered world-beaters or underpowered generalists and it's not the player's job to figure out exactly where everything feels right.

In Tabletop, they made the Bolter practically weaker than a Lasgun just so that people would use the Intercessors more over Tactical Marines, ect ect. 8-9th edition, as far as I'd experienced, was a painful experience in unfair balancing for the sake of selling specific models for the Astartes.

All because the original Firstborn models were too small and GW had to mess up their lore and balance to sell models to scale, as if people wouldn't have bought the new models just for being better.

GW is a company that causes infinite suffering and they hold many people's favorite tabletop wargame in their grossly incompetent and spiteful claws. lol

Enjoy that. Or rather, find ways to in spite of Games Workshop.

In Lore, most Astartes you see come from the absolute peak humanity has to offer, goes through years of training, and becomes a genetically modified super human then further clad in power armor and given the most powerful weapons the Imperium has, and by the time they are fighting in a Tactical Squad they probably have over a decade of live combat experience under their belt on top of it all.

And yes one of these lucky sons of The Emperor will get his head exploded by a three year old Ork Boy firing a gun he wasn't really even aiming he just likes the noise it makes.

...White Dwarf had, once upon a time, did release a "movie Space Marines" rules, which did indeed allowed a player to make a 2000 point list consisting of about 6 dudes who were absolute menaces on the field. I can kinda understand the yearning to see such a match...

Those where cool rules... Movie SM Lascannon was just... chef's kiss...