Trump Made An Abortion Policy Video And Stayed Silent About A National Ban
ARJUN: Hi. This is Arjun (ph) calling from Burlington, Vt., a day after viewing the eclipse. I rode a little over 100 miles of Vermont country roads to get here, but experiencing totality on the water was well worth the journey. This podcast was recorded at...
ASHLEY LOPEZ, HOST:
12:35 p.m. Eastern Time on Tuesday, April 9, 2024.
ARJUN: Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I'll probably still be on trail for a few days as I meander back to Boston. OK. Here's the show.
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LOPEZ: Oh, lovely.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: I mean, just hearing those birds was worth...
LOPEZ: Yeah.
ORDOÑEZ: ...A hello.
LOPEZ: I know.
DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN, BYLINE: I am calmed.
LOPEZ: Yeah. It brought down my blood pressure for sure. Hey there. It's the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.
KURTZLEBEN: I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidential campaign.
ORDOÑEZ: And I'm Franco Ordoñez. I also cover the campaign.
LOPEZ: Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, has put out a video in an apparent effort to clarify his position on abortion access.
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DONALD TRUMP: Many states will be different. Many will have a different number of weeks, or some will have more conservative than others. And that's what they will be. At the end of the day, this is all about the will of the people. You must follow your heart or, in many cases, your religion or your faith.
LOPEZ: Danielle, so this is a four-minute video on his site, Truth Social. Can you walk us through this announcement and tell us exactly what he has said and how he's, like, sort of framing this issue and his position on it?
KURTZLEBEN: Right. I just want to start off by pointing out that we have been waiting for Trump's position on abortion to be clarified for months since this campaign started. It is really notable that he made it through the primary process without clarifying this. So OK, we got a bit of clarity here. What he said is that abortion is a state's rights issue to him and that he supports exceptions allowing people to have abortions in cases of incest, in cases of rape and in cases where a mother's life is threatened by the pregnancy. Now, I do want to add that that leaves a lot of questions about still, what is his position on a lot of other things.
LOPEZ: Well, Franco, I mean, you've been covering the Trump campaign for a while now, too. And, you know, in the wake of the Dobbs ruling, abortion has obviously been, like, a big liability for Republican candidates, especially now that we're, you know, easing into a presidential election. I mean, do you think that this statement undoes some of the damage created by that Dobbs ruling?
ORDOÑEZ: You know, I think he sure hopes so. I mean, you know, let's do remember that Trump did blame Republicans for...
LOPEZ: Yeah.
ORDOÑEZ: ...How poorly they did in the midterms. You know, he said they were being too strict and they didn't have enough exceptions. He said it wasn't his fault. I think there is an argument to be made that this statement won't make it worse for them.
LOPEZ: Yeah.
ORDOÑEZ: You know, it gives Republicans a more clear message to share over the next months until the election in November, that it's a state issue, not a federal issue. But I mean, let's be honest, it's - and let's be real, it's not likely to stop this issue. I mean, there's still a lot of Republican-led states who are continuing to work on restricting abortion rights. It's literally going to be on the ballot in a number of states, including the very important Florida.
LOPEZ: Yeah.
ORDOÑEZ: You know, and it is all tied to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, which obviously Trump played a big role, and it is his signature for victory.
KURTZLEBEN: Right. I would add that this one other thing that he mentioned in that video that ties to what Franco is saying is Trump said we have to win. And this is a line that he repeats on abortion over and over is really, essentially saying this is not about belief, this is about winning. And he has said this throughout this campaign that Republicans have to win on abortion. And also, consider that Trump has been all over the map throughout his political career in...
LOPEZ: Yeah.
KURTZLEBEN: ...Terms of abortion. A long time ago, before he was a candidate for anything, he was in favor of abortion rights. Since becoming a candidate, at one point he did, while president, he supported a national abortion ban, for example. When he was first running for president in one interview he said that women should be punished for getting abortions. He really has espoused all sorts of positions and is always putting out more evidence that he changes position based on what he thinks will win, not necessarily because of a personal principle.
ORDOÑEZ: You can expect that to continue...
KURTZLEBEN: Yes.
LOPEZ: Right.
KURTZLEBEN: Of course, yeah.
LOPEZ: Right.
ORDOÑEZ: ...For the next few months. I mean, he has evolved so much, shifted so much, and he is going to continue to get questions about this. His supporters, particularly in the evangelical community, are going to continue to push him on a national ban. He's going to continue to try to satisfy, you know, both his ardent supporters as well as kind of try to maybe move to the middle a little bit. So this is not over.
LOPEZ: Yeah. I mean, 'cause even if Trump is putting winning above belief, I mean, there is a sector of the conservative coalition that is very active, and that is the anti-abortion movement, the real believers in this. And, you know, even though, you know, Trump has, in the past, given them a lot of wins, he hasn't been, as you mentioned, fully in step with them. Danielle, what have you heard of - from them about this, from the sort of, like, evangelical and more conservative factions of the Republican Party, because they do put belief, I think, in a lot of ways, over winning at times on this issue.
KURTZLEBEN: Absolutely. And when it comes to people who really believe in this topic, it has - the views that I have seen since Trump's announcement have ranged from very, very upset to, well, he's better than Biden. Like...
LOPEZ: Yeah.
KURTZLEBEN: ...Not a lot of super full-throated, hooray Trump. For example, the group Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America - that is one of the most major organizations opposing abortion rights in America - they said in a statement that they were deeply disappointed that - I'm paraphrasing here, but they said something to the effect that an unborn person's rights shouldn't begin and end at a state border.
Lindsey Graham, the senator from South Carolina who has supported a national abortion ban in Congress in the past - he put out a statement saying I respectfully disagree with President Trump's statement that abortion is a states' rights issue. Maybe the most positive statement I saw was from the group Students For Life Action, which is another pretty well-known...
LOPEZ: Yeah.
KURTZLEBEN: ...Anti-abortion rights group. They said, you know, we could - clearly the Trump camp needs more education on this topic, but Trump is more on our side than Biden is. So good for Trump. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but they really just - in their statement, they came down to, well, Trump is very much more our guy.
ORDOÑEZ: And that's what the Trump campaign is kind of...
KURTZLEBEN: Absolutely.
LOPEZ: Yeah.
ORDOÑEZ: ...You know, betting on.
KURTZLEBEN: Yeah.
LOPEZ: Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back - how this all plays in the general election.
And we're back. And, you know, Trump has a group of conservatives sort of in his orbit who have been working on policy plans when it comes to abortion as well as other issues. Franco, what can you tell me about, like, these groups that have sort of been working on policy plans for what a possible conservative president would do in 2025?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah. I mean, it's basically a government in waiting that they are creating. It's a transition project - Project 2025, as it says. And basically, while it is not directly tied to the Trump campaign - the Trump campaign has, you know, given themselves some distance from groups like this, including Project 2025 - there's no question at all that this is the clearest plan, essentially, to convert Trump's ideas into a governing agenda. I mean, all the authors, those involved - or pretty much all of them - are Trump allies, Trump surrogates, former loyal members of his administration. And what they have done is put together a 900-page document detailing the agenda for each major department and agency. And the idea here is to have that conservative infrastructure ready on day one.
LOPEZ: And, well, Danielle, what specifically is part of that infrastructure related to abortion? Like, what are those plans?
KURTZLEBEN: Right. So there are two broad categories of abortion actions that Project 2025 advocates for. One involves the FDA. And specifically, it involves the FDA rolling back approval of, or at the very least, availability of mifepristone, which is one of the two drugs used in medication abortion. Medication abortion accounts for a majority of abortions in America right now, so that is a big deal.
The other one involves the Department of Justice. And specifically it involves the Department of Justice enforcing something called the Comstock Act. The Comstock Act is an anti-obscenity law that was passed in the late 19th century, and it bans the sending of anything obscene, lewd, lascivious, vile - all the synonyms of those words - through the mail. But it specifies, also, that you cannot send things used in abortion through the mail or through any other carriers - UPS, FedEx, etc. Now, if you interpret and enforce that law in a certain way, conservatives are saying in Project 2025, we want to use this to restrict the sending of abortion pills through the mail or through any other carrier. However, legal experts have told me that the Justice Department would have very broad jurisdiction here. They could theoretically decide, hey, we're also not going to allow them to send, I don't know, the gloves you wear to perform an abortion, the speculums. And in so doing, could essentially shut down abortion nationwide, even in states where it is legal.
LOPEZ: Yeah.
KURTZLEBEN: One thing to point out here on the Comstock Act is that interest in this act is not confined to Project 2025. We had two Supreme Court justices - Alito and Thomas - reference it at the Supreme Court just this last month. And aside from that, nine senators recently wrote letters to a couple of top retailers, pharmacy chains, essentially warning them that if you distribute abortion pills, there's a five-year statute of limitations on the Comstock Act, which is on the books. Meaning if you distribute those pills now, you could be prosecuted in the future. It is just worth stressing here that this has become a more mainstream Republican idea and that the implications are wide reaching.
LOPEZ: So regardless of what Trump says in a video, all these mechanisms are sort of at work and will go into play if there's a Republican president.
KURTZLEBEN: Right. And he has not stated what he would do on these counts. Again, I've asked his campaign about the Comstock Act. They will not address it. So we don't know what he would do. But these are there at his disposal, should he attempt to use them.
LOPEZ: All right. Well, let's leave it there for today. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.
KURTZLEBEN: I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. I cover the presidential campaign.
ORDOÑEZ: And I'm Franco Ordoñez. I also cover the campaign.
LOPEZ: And thank you for listening to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.
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