< Beyoncé's 'Cowboy Carter' ropes us in and gives us everything to talk about

AISHA HARRIS, HOST:

Throw on those boots with the spurs. Grab your cowboy hat and saddle up that horse. Of course we're talking about Beyonce's highly anticipated album, "Cowboy Carter."

STEPHEN THOMPSON, BYLINE: Beyonce herself has said that "Cowboy Carter" is more than just a country album. It's a genre-blending pastiche full of heavy Americana signifiers, not to mention legends like Dolly Parton, and she ties it all together with the unbridled swagger of Queen Bey herself. I'm Stephen Thompson.

HARRIS: And I'm Aisha Harris. Today we're riding with Beyonce's new album, "Cowboy Carter," on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

HARRIS: Joining us today is the host of NPR's It's Been A Minute, Brittany Luse. Hey, Brittany.

BRITTANY LUSE, BYLINE: Hey. Thanks for having me.

HARRIS: Also with us is NPR music correspondent Sidney Madden. Howdy, Sidney.

(LAUGHTER)

SIDNEY MADDEN, BYLINE: What's up y'all?

HARRIS: Ah, this is going to be quite fun. It's great to have all of you here to chat about this. So on "Cowboy Carter," Beyonce's lassoed us to the rodeo with a countryfied album done her way. I'm sorry. There are going to be so many references to cowboys and signifiers here. She taps into her Texas and Louisiana roots while attempting to reclaim the mythology of the American West, as both her history and Black history writ large. This album is sprawling. There are 27 tracks. A few living legends of the genre lend their support here. Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson and Linda Martell all make cameos.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SPAGHETTII")

LINDA MARTELL: Genres are a funny little concept, aren't they? Yes, they are.

HARRIS: Fun fact - Martell was the first Black woman to perform at the Grand Ole Opry. The album also ropes in a younger generation of country stars including Rhiannon Giddens, Tanner Adell and Willie Jones.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "JUST FOR FUN")

WILLIE JONES: (Singing) I'm going down South just for fun. I am the man. I know it. And everywhere I go, I hide my face.

HARRIS: And "Cowboy Carter" also features duets with Post Malone and Miley Cyrus, two stars who occasionally blend country and pop in their own music.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LEVII'S JEANS")

BEYONCE AND POST MALONE: (Singing) Girl, I wish I was your Levi's jeans. The way you poppin' out my phone, I love you...

HARRIS: I did not have a Post Malone/Beyonce duet on the bingo card for 2024, but here we are. So the result is a project that draws heavily on the past and present. It's bending and mashing up country twang with everything from Jersey club music to rock to operatic runs to R&B. Now, we are recording this Monday morning, so we've spent the entire weekend immersed with this album, and I can't wait to hear what y'all think. So Sidney, I'll start with you. Maybe this is a loaded question here, but - so in a press release from her company, Parkwood Entertainment, she called this album the best music she's ever made. You've had a few days to sit with this now. So how much do you agree with her?

MADDEN: You trying to get me in trouble with the Beyhive already, Aisha. Wow. It is absolutely - I love how you said in the introduction that it is a sprawling piece of work because it is very much giving Ph.D. dissertation level of research and self-referential influences here.

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: She definitely feels the most free that I've ever heard her on an entire project. And I think, of course, we got to give a shout-out to "Renaissance" because that was act one in this presumed three-act trilogy that she's putting out. And I feel the music that she's just been releasing in this act one, two - and we don't know what we're getting for act three yet - has been her most anthemic, most free-falling, most euphoric I've ever heard her on a mic with collaborators or a soloist. So I know it's always good press to say it's the best you've ever done. But we might be there. We might be there.

THOMPSON: Wow.

HARRIS: OK.

MADDEN: She's never hidden her country roots. Like, she always reps Houston. She's appeared...

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: ...At the Houston Rodeo many times over the years. "Irreplaceable," 2006, is imbued with country. Her Essence cover shoots over the years were always very country themed - "Daddy Lessons" in 2016, which I hope we get into the history of that and that performance as a impetus for this album overall. She's never shied away from country, but I'm so glad that she's putting her boot all the way on country's necks with this one.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Nice. Thank you, Sidney. Brittany, how about you? Where is this for you when it comes to Beyonce and her entire career?

LUSE: I think this is one of her best albums for sure - for sure, for sure, for sure. I think it is some of her best vocal production...

THOMPSON: Yes.

LUSE: ...Ever, and she's somebody who takes vocal production extremely seriously. And I mean, you can hear it all over "Renaissance." One of the greatest joys of listening to her music is you can listen to the same song for five, six, 10, 15 years - as I know (ph) - and you can still hear, like, new...

MADDEN: New things.

LUSE: ...Like, vocal stems and harmonies and layers and things like that. So I think her vocal production in this is incredible. This is somebody who's, like, a genius-level musician who's experimenting in a genre that's outside of their usual, while still managing to make music that I think - and also, I mean, just from a cursory look at social media and the numbers that this album is doing, it seems like her base is also really pleased by it as well.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: And her base is mainly not country fans. So I will say I wish that she would have leaned a little bit more into some of the deeper cuts of country. Like, Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton - I mean, I'll say, I, myself, would never pass up the opportunity to work with Dolly Parton, but...

MADDEN: The OGs. Yeah.

LUSE: Of course. Of course.

HARRIS: Never.

LUSE: But I mean, those are, like, kind of the expected people. There are some other - like, and also, too, even like, think about someone, like, with a voice like Dolly Parton's. It's very different than Beyonce. I'm like, maybe she should have gone back into Wynonna Judd's catalog, like a little bit...

MADDEN: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Of a heftier voice.

MADDEN: Yeah.

THOMPSON: Yeah.

LUSE: You know what I'm saying?

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: So I mean, I think that she did incredible work, but a part of me feels like - this is my hypothesis - that there's, like, this sort of, like, need to experiment and play with, like, the height of her musical powers, which she was absolutely doing, but also this need to bring in an audience that may not be as familiar with country or have as deep of a love for country as she does. I would love to see, like, a five-to-eight-song EP of, like, the more esoteric things that perhaps didn't make...

MADDEN: Yeah.

LUSE: ...The album.

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: Some of the bigger, like, artistic swings?

LUSE: Yes, yeah.

THOMPSON: Brittany, did you just suggest that this album should be longer?

LUSE: I have no problem with that.

(LAUGHTER)

LUSE: I have no problem with that.

MADDEN: Well, she said she recorded over a hundred songs.

HARRIS: I think she was suggesting there could be, like...

LUSE: A supplement.

MADDEN: Yeah.

HARRIS: A supplement or a deluxe version, maybe...

LUSE: Yes.

HARRIS: ...As the kids do nowadays.

MADDEN: (Laughter).

THOMPSON: I really like this record. I think that my opinion of it has grown each time I've listened to it because my initial thought - the quibbles were kind of drowning out the joys. And each time I've gone through it, I've kind of gotten on board with something that I wasn't into before. My initial read was, I wanted her to kick down the doors of country music a little harder than she does here.

She certainly has a very, very expansive view of country, which I appreciate so much as somebody who has followed country music for 35 years and hated to see it growing so narrow in its presentation. I really appreciate that she takes an expansive view of country music sound, but I felt like there are a bunch of moments on this record where it feels like she's asking for permission. So you have a bunch of these interstitials with Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton kind of introducing songs, and there's a particularly jarring one with Dolly Parton introducing a cover of Jolene.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DOLLY P")

DOLLY PARTON: You know that hussy with the good hair you sing about? Reminded me of someone I knew back when, except she has flaming locks of auburn hair. Bless her heart.

MADDEN: Oh, let's get into that.

THOMPSON: We can get into "JOLENE" 'cause I was not on board with this cover.

HARRIS: I didn't like it either. It's all right. Yeah. Yeah.

THOMPSON: But as I listened to it and as I kind of let it sink in, I was finding these great pleasures that I'd kind of missed the first time through. "II HANDS II HEAVEN," really late on this record, is just a gorgeous, rich, sumptuous, beautiful song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "II HANDS II HEAVEN")

BEYONCE: (Singing) Bottle in my hand, my whiskey up high. Two hands to heaven, coyotes run wild. Oh. Oh. Oh. God only, God only knows why, though.

THOMPSON: As Brittany said, her vocals are so strong throughout this record.

LUSE: Yeah.

THOMPSON: The layering of voices on this record, it is a beautiful-sounding record that keeps giving me new things to love and keeps drowning out the inner critic that is like, I wouldn't have done that. I would have taken that out. Why is Post Malone here? That's (laughter)...

HARRIS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And mark my words, that Post Malone duet may wind up being the song of the summer. Get used to that song.

HARRIS: I don't want to (laughter).

THOMPSON: I know. I know, I'm not super into it either, but it's going to be a big, big, big song.

HARRIS: I don't know. That song just feels like "The Girl Is Mine" on "Thriller." It's like, why? Why are...

THOMPSON: Why are you here? Why are we doing this?

LUSE: Not "The Girl Is Mine," Aisha.

HARRIS: OK. So - and I want to go back to the point you were making about her being at her most free and then this experimental vibe because that is, I think, what I - where I'm at, at this moment, with Beyonce. And I think I've been here for a while, but I think Beyonce is probably the freest pop artist who's ever lived. And by free, I mean as in terms of having the resources, the creative resources to do whatever she wants and also a fan base - and we live in a time where there are so many, especially Black, brown, queer people who are able to speak their voice in publications, who have been able to sort of really prop up and explain why Beyonce is so important.

At the same time, I don't know how truly radical she is, or at least if she's radical for the culture at large as opposed to radical for herself, in a way. And I'm not saying that she's only concerned about herself, but I don't see her success translating beyond sort of what serves her. Like, I don't know if this is actually going to bust down the doors for country in the way that I think people are trying to posit it will. Like, her becoming the first Black woman to top the country Billboard charts, that's great.

But, like, I would have been more impressed if she wasn't Beyonce. You know, I would be, like, more convinced that an actual change is happening and emerging within country music if it wasn't someone who has as much power and success already - if it had been someone like Lil Nas X, who I mean, you know, he came in and then the country Billboard kind of took that away from him, that opportunity away from him to have "Old Town Road" become No. 1. And I think in a way that sort of...

MADDEN: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Paved the way for Beyonce to actually become the first Black woman to do this. At the same time, I really think this album is so fascinating to me, and I think it's really cool to see a performer who is as far into her career as she is to be able to both be experimental for her - maybe not as experimental as, like, we might want her to be - and then also have all the interest and have all the attention here. And I think that, to me, is what I admire most about this album beyond the music itself, is just, like, the fact that we got here, if that makes sense.

MADDEN: Yeah. No, it definitely makes sense. And I love how you're making the distinction of her breaking these boundaries. Is it self-serving or is it truly, like, kicking in the door for the next generation? The fact that she did get that No. 1 spot is proof of concept of how linear and how - Stephen, how you said, how narrow it has become when the building blocks and the DNA of country are Black people, are Black music. We can talk about Lesley Riddle. We can talk about "Tee Tot" Payne. We can talk about the country music radio format and machine that really creates a bottleneck and makes it nearly impossible for people like Brittney Spencer or Mickey Guyton or Tanner Adell to - even if they are making waves in the streaming era, that country radio machine is still plateauing them in a lot of ways.

I think, to the point of it being expansive and breaking these boundaries, she's also prompting the listeners, all of us, to interrogate within ourselves what we've come to think of as country music. And I think that's really where the cultural shift can happen because, I mean, we saw when "TEXAS HOLD 'EM" started to pop up and the Beyhive was requesting it on certain radio stations, and radio stations were being like, no, we can't play her. She's an R&B artist. This is a country station. And it took campaigning and social media and all that to switch people's tunes, so to speak.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TEXAS HOLD 'EM")

BEYONCE: (Singing) This ain't Texas, ain't no hold'em, so lay your cards down, down, down, down.

MADDEN: I think the fact that so many people who've never even heard themselves in country music are now getting hip to people like Tanner or Brittney or Reyna or Tiera or all these other people, even in the liner notes, like, the full production...

THOMPSON: Right.

MADDEN: ...Credits just came out. There's a songwriter named INK, Spill My Ink, who's all over this album and has been wearing her cowboy boots and cowboy hat everywhere, trying to infuse every collab. It's a lot of those people who are, like, the session musicians and the session songwriters who try to infuse everything they do with country along the way. And I feel like expanding the fan base is part of what is going to create that momentous shift, because we can't leave it up to the people who've always kept those gates closed to try and open them now...

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: ...Just because Beyonce wants it to happen.

THOMPSON: Right.

MADDEN: I mean, we can't wait for the CMAs to try and be like, OK, we was wrong. You know, CMAs are coming up, by the way. They're coming up in May. I know we all looked that date up. Yeah. But I really think the shift in power in this is really the shift in listenership, which - the Beyhive is a huge fan base that, putting on of new country acts - Black women acts, specifically - and that history lesson of what Linda Martell did for us, like, all those years ago, that's really where the see change can happen.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: But one of the things that has been bugging me about this album is that it felt to me like its origin story starts with - or supposedly starts with Beyonce's performance 2016 CMAs...

HARRIS: Being petty (laughter).

LUSE: ...With The Chicks. Yes, and feeling unwelcome in this space.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: Not just in that room, but also just in the country space, with the way that "Daddy Lessons" and that performance were received by the country establishment. Fast-forward to now. It's - oh, my gosh - eight years later, and she's got this, you know, she says it's not a country album, but I mean, given all of her catalog, this is the countriest thing she's put out so far.

THOMPSON: And given the number of country signifiers.

LUSE: Exactly. The number of country - my Spidey senses are tingling.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: And she does do this really beautiful, like, historical look back, reaching back to Linda Martell and bringing her into the present and connecting their stories. But where I am frustrated a little bit, or at least perplexed with the narrative around this album that she has constructed, is that there is Linda Martell, there is Beyonce, and then the other Black women in country whose voices appear in the album are very difficult to distinguish because...

THOMPSON: Yes.

LUSE: ...They're put into the last verse...

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Of "BLACKBIIRD."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BLACKBIIRD")

BEYONCE: (Singing) You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

LUSE: That, to me, felt a little bit tacked on. The singers that were included in that were Tanner Adell, Brittney Spencer, Tiera Kennedy, Reyna Roberts. These four women who are already in country - right? - and each have their own fan bases, and they kind of play a supporting role...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

LUSE: ...On the album to Beyonce. Whereas, like, someone like Post Malone is really a featured artist.

HARRIS: Oh, yeah.

LUSE: Miley Cyrus is really a feature. Shaboozey...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Willie Jones, really featured artists. I still can't help but think about someone like Mickey Guyton who's right there...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Nominated for four Grammys, like, somebody who's doing...

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Extremely well in the streaming era. Like, she is a well-known Black woman in country presently who, truthfully, is probably a more direct heir to Linda Martell's legacy than Beyonce. It felt like the narrative was Beyonce is the first Black woman since Linda Martell to try to enter the country space. They slammed the doors in her face, and now she's come back and she's going to bring the rest of women - Black women in country up with her. I kind of feel like that it's not going to make as big of a splash for Black...

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: ...Women in country en masse as actually I think there was the opportunity to do.

HARRIS: Right.

LUSE: And if she had done more of like a hype women thing - right? - like, they're like a supergroup and you could kind of get to know everybody's voices and hear them together or solo, like, more frequently. I just wish she had incorporated them into the album more.

HARRIS: She is a pop artist who regardless of whatever genre she's playing in, she wants to appeal to the masses. But she's also living in this era and has sort of pioneered this current era of, like, every pop star has to have, like, a backstory that their fans are invested in. And so there's this weird tension between songs that are meant to be specific to her experience but that are also supposed to speak to lots of women or lots of different people. And I think we see that in probably one of my favorite songs of this album, which is also her kind of, like, not really country, but also just feels like a very Beyonce song, "YA YA," which, you know, starts with a sort of lead-in from Linda Martell and then, like, goes into "YA YA," and it samples "These Boots Are Made for Walkin'," of course, the Nancy Sinatra song. But then it also, like, is giving total Tina Turner...

MADDEN: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Vibes meets James Brown meets The Shangri-Las.

MADDEN: Yeah.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YA YA")

BEYONCE: (Singing) My family lived and died in America, good old USA. Whole lot of red in that white and blue. History can't be erased, oh.

HARRIS: She talks about in the first verse it's, like, kind of her trying to signal, like, politics. And she's like, we're going to talk about how hard it is. You're overtired, working for half the pay. It's like...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Obviously Beyonce is not doing that. And then the second verse is all about, like, being loved up on your boo. And I'm like, OK, so what is this song about? Is it about, like (laughter), you know, fighting for your rights or - and I think it works, but I think that is that classic tension at the heart of so much of her music.

THOMPSON: Yeah. I think "YA YA" is such an interesting microcosm of this record as a whole, including the callbacks to older songs, the kind of contradictory messaging that's going on throughout. And I want to actually, I'm really, really glad that Brittany brought up the points that she did about kind of leading versus following that's going on with this record a little bit. And I want to tie it back to something, Aisha, that you said kind of near the top of this discussion where you were talking about how - about Beyonce as a free artist, kind of artistically liberated to do whatever she wants. I want to kind of pull that thread a little bit because my reaction to this record is a little bit the opposite, that she seems really bound to, like, needing validation. You know, she needs the...

HARRIS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: ...She needs validation from Dolly Parton in order to cover "Jolene." She needs validation from Willie Nelson. There's a line that goes by late in this record in "SWEET HONEY BUCKIIN'." And it's not, look at this horse, look at this horse, look at this horse.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: I mean, but the best line of the entire album.

THOMPSON: The best line of the entire album. There's a line in the song where she, like, basically complains about never winning album of the year at the Grammys.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SWEET HONEY BUCKIIN'")

BEYONCE: A-O-T-Y, I ain't win. I ain't stunting about them. Take that s*** on the chin. Come back and f*** up the pen.

THOMPSON: Commenting, like, I haven't won album of the year at the Grammys. And that's clearly stuck in her craw as much as it's stuck in mine. And as much as it's...

HARRIS: Yes.

THOMPSON: ...Stuck in the craw of the Beyhive.

HARRIS: And Jay-Z.

THOMPSON: And Jay-Z. But it's also, like, is that what this record's about?

HARRIS: Oh, yes, it totally is.

LUSE: Yeah.

THOMPSON: This record is about, like, you still want to please gatekeepers. And until...

HARRIS: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And she says a lot. She said in the "Renaissance" movie she's paid a lot of lip service in her career to being liberated, to being free, but she is still obsessed with the validation of those gatekeepers.

LUSE: She doesn't need it.

MADDEN: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And she doesn't need it.

HARRIS: Yeah, and I want to say, I - being free in the way of, like, she could be. Like, she has the resources to do it. And she also, like, doesn't have the sort of same demons that a lot of pop stars before her have had, where you're thinking about Michael Jackson or Whitney Houston or even...

LUSE: Prince. Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Luther Vandross, where it's, like, you have all of these other things that could hinder your career or do derail your career, and you have to have, like, a comeback. She's never needed to - she's never had a comeback yet. Like, she's gone...

MADDEN: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Away, but, like, she hasn't been like, oh, this is me trying to, like, make up for my last album. Not to say that all of her albums are perfect...

THOMPSON: No.

HARRIS: ...Or great, in my opinion, but, like, she hasn't had a true flop era...

THOMPSON: Right.

HARRIS: ...And that is unheard of for someone...

MADDEN: No.

HARRIS: ...Almost 30 years into her career, starting with Destiny's Child. Like, it's ridiculous.

MADDEN: I mean, I think flop era is - we have to definitely put a different barometer on Beyonce in terms of, like, flop era, because some of her albums were valleys instead of peaks, like, "4" being...

LUSE: Sure.

MADDEN: ...An example.

LUSE: Like "4". I disagree, but.

THOMPSON: Really?

LUSE: I mean, she loves "4" but the fans was not - they were not loving "4." But she loves "4". We love "4".

HARRIS: I would put "Sasha Fierce" there.

THOMPSON: "Sasha Fierce," maybe.

MADDEN: Yeah. Yeah, we love "4," and I'm - it also did well, right? Like, we got to put Beyonce...

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: ...On a different scale of flop era. But compared to things like, 2013 self-titled or "Lemonade." You know what I mean?

HARRIS: Sorry. I should clarify. By flop era, I don't necessarily mean commercial. I mean creatively, and I mean, like, the things that we would - like, I don't know.

THOMPSON: Maybe she needed to come back from that second "Lion King" record.

LUSE: The second "Lion King" record is good. That's one of her best.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: OK. Sorry, Sidney. I interrupted you. Continue.

MADDEN: This is besides the point. I was going to be, like, the only time she's ever really gone away is when she's taken the year off or, like, had a child. But anyway.

HARRIS: Yeah.

MADDEN: But to add on to Stephen's point, I definitely do feel like the underbelly or the underpinning of this album is making a case for working smart when you're underestimated, right? This is not just a reclamation of different genres that Black people birthed, which you could say is the umbrella theme of all the acts right now.

LUSE: So far, yeah.

MADDEN: This is definitely rooted a little bit in feeling shunned, feeling scorned. And I do fully agree with tying it to that level of - I don't know if we can really call it rejection because she's - has the most Grammys out of any living performer. But just...

LUSE: That's the thing. The contradictions here.

MADDEN: Exactly. Keeping that one gramophone away from her for AOTY, it is - but I wrote a piece about it, about this contradiction, about this tension earlier this year when Jay-Z made that speech at the Grammys, knowing full well that she was about to drop this album on our heads a few months later, and how it would really vie for that AOTY, especially in mentioning that you didn't get it and you didn't care 'cause you're going to go back and work even harder and mess up the pen even more, you know? So it is very much kowtowing to the gatekeepers and wanting to create this new peak for herself, this new level of ascension. And I do also think that she doesn't need it 'cause at this point, yes, she is bigger than the CMAs, she is bigger than the Grammys. She's bigger than all of these industries...

LUSE: Yeah.

MADDEN: ...Put together.

LUSE: Also, too, I mean, even a co-sign from her, from, like, an up-and-coming artist can potentially do more for them than a Grammy could.

MADDEN: Exactly, than an entire record label could.

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

MADDEN: In her 40s, as someone who's been working towards this since she was 10, 12, 14 years old, she's freeing herself from certain constraints and certain confines, but she's still working within the overall industry system, you know? And I do think that would be like...

HARRIS: Yeah, yeah.

MADDEN: ...Her final form.

HARRIS: I just - I want the spirit of Lena Horne in "The Wiz" to just, like, show up on her doorstep...

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: ...And sing, (singing) believe in yourself.

Like, come on. Let it go

LUSE: I want her to go full Prince. Like, I want her to just be - like, to go down to that big campus that she bought for herself that she lives on, or go down there and, like, never go to the Grammys. I mean, I do get annoyed that she doesn't talk to us 'cause I'm like, this is an album where it's, like, you want her to have, like, the hour-and-13-minute interview. This woman is a genius, and you want to hear how she got it done. But in lieu of her not speaking to us, I want her to go and sit on that little compound and just make music and then just put out what she feels like she wants us to hear. My mind's already blown by what she's able to do now.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: If she were able to just set that down, I think that she could sore of even higher heights, which is, I mean, I will say, I feel like I hear some of that on "BODYGUARD," which reminds me of, like, "Raspberry Beret" or "Money Don't Matter 2 Night" by Prince.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BODYGUARD")

BEYONCE: (Singing) They couldn't have me, and they never will. And sometimes I hold you closer just to know you're real.

HARRIS: "BODYGUARD." It's giving, like, kind of Fleetwood Mac...

MADDEN: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Vibes meets, like...

MADDEN: There's a few interpolations of it on there.

THOMPSON: There's a bunch of Fleetwood Mac vibes...

LUSE: Yeah.

THOMPSON: ...On this record.

HARRIS: Yeah. And I liked that. What other songs are we feeling that we maybe haven't mentioned yet?

MADDEN: Well, I think "AMERIICAN REQUIEM" to start the album off is a really great thesis. It's soaring.

HARRIS: Yes. Yes.

MADDEN: It's anthemic, and it's directly referencing that performance that we all know is the impetus for this album, which is, like, there's a lot of talking going on. They used to say I was too country in interviews when she was coming up with Destiny's Child, and now she's not country enough, so it's literally like, you're not letting me in the doors, OK, I'm going to build this whole house and blow your mmm down, blow your...

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "AMERIICAN REQUIEM")

BEYONCE: (Singing) It's a lotta chatter in here, but let me make myself clear. Can you hear me? Or do you fear me?

MADDEN: It reminds me of just how soaring the guitar is on it, how big it feels, and then it just goes right into, like, more cozy, intimate jam sessions. I will say another comparison point between this and "Act 1: Renaissance" is a lot of this album feels so much more intimate to me, and that's what I also mean by when I say freeing. Like, I don't feel like she's singing out to a stadium of millions, although we don't know if she's going to announce a tour with this album yet, but it really feels like a cozy, comfortable space for her.

THOMPSON: It's interesting. I had initially kind of why is the second track on this record a Beatles cover? Like, what a strange move. And then the more I listened to this record, the more I kept coming back to "Blackbiird" as not only a showcase for these other magnificent voices that layer together so beautifully, but also the backstory behind that record and the history lesson behind that song and how it fits into this record really, really works for me. And I heard "Blackbiird" on the radio over the weekend, and, ooh, it really sounds nice.

HARRIS: And it's just worth noting that the history of this record - Paul McCartney has talked over the years about it, but it sounds like one of the main sort of inspirations for this was the civil rights movement. I think the Little Rock Nine he's kind of referring to for that song. It really is a beautiful song. I think this is the far better cover.

THOMPSON: Oh, boy. Yeah.

MADDEN: Yeah, what's the beef with "Jolene," y'all? Let's go.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "JOLENE")

BEYONCE: (Singing) I can easily understand why you're attracted to my man, but you don't want this smoke, so shoot your shot with someone else. You heard me.

HARRIS: But I do want to say that I both admire - like, when I saw "Jolene," I was like, oh, we've had so many covers of "Jolene," why do we - so the fact that she takes a different tactic and kind of makes it more angry and like, I'm going to kill this woman who's trying to take my man - bold. It's a choice. But I'm also just like, you had a whole album to let that out.

THOMPSON: This is the thing.

HARRIS: You did it in 2016 with "Lemonade." And, like, it's - again, it's like with the album of the year. It's like, we're also still bothered by that hussy, as Dolly Parton refers to her, with the good hair. And I'm like, why are we still talking about this?

THOMPSON: Why are you - but then changing all the lyrics to be bold and, like, you better stay away. Oh, she couldn't do a straight read of the original. It would have been so jarringly inconsistent with everything else Beyonce has ever said...

LUSE: Oh, yes, it doesn't go - it's the wrong thing.

THOMPSON: ...In every song she's ever recorded. So if she had done a straight read, it would not have worked at all. But this read also just, oh, takes this classic song and makes it so petty and angry, too (laughter). It just doesn't - it gets rid of all the great things about the original.

LUSE: Well, so the thing is that because musically, the lore that she has created now around cheating from "Lemonade" is, like, we're all going to be like, this is about Jay-Z. And, I mean, notably, like, that sort of talk was not on "Renaissance." It wasn't on, you know, "The Lion King: The Gift."

MADDEN: That'd be so strange.

THOMPSON: I'm really glad it wasn't.

(LAUGHTER)

LUSE: So this is really like the first time that she's kind of revisiting the themes of cheating since then. Like, I'm done with this chapter. Perhaps in your marriage you all are also done with this chapter. But personally, I'm done with this chapter. I want to move on.

MADDEN: All right. I got beef because I actually don't think it's from her point of view. I think it's from her mama's point of view.

LUSE: But still. Look at Matthew, though. Again, is Matthew a guy - like, she's sung a lot about Matthew not being a great guy and so my thought is, like...

THOMPSON: There's a lot of Dad coming through on this record. Yeah.

LUSE: Or a song like "Daddy Lessons" or, like, "Daughter" - even that feels incongruent. So even if it's, like, from the point of view of Tina, it's like you spent so much time - you have artistically killed your father since 2016. He's been dead in all your music. So, like, even, like, her mom singing to, like, a woman who's possibly, you know, trying to get with Matthew or, like, the lore...

THOMPSON: Sure.

LUSE: ...Idea of Matthew - that also still feels - like, it feels weird to me.

HARRIS: Well-trod territory. But I will say, for me, I think my favorite song, which is not "Jolene," is probably "II Most Wanted."

LUSE: Oh, so good, so good.

HARRIS: ...Which - I was very surprised. Look; I like Miley. I think she's put out some bops. She's got a very distinctive voice, and I think that their harmonies together on this song...

MADDEN: Yeah.

LUSE: Yeah.

HARRIS: ...Are just like butter.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "II MOST WANTED")

BEYONCE AND MILEY CYRUS: (Singing) I'll be your shotgun rider till the day I die - smoke out the window flying down the 405.

HARRIS: Yeah, I feel like this is the song that she - I could see her singing at the CMAs - like, her and Miley doing this song together.

MADDEN: Yeah, that'll definitely go down as a calling card of the album.

LUSE: No, I agree. I mean, the vocal production on that song that just blew my mind was the fact that their voices are so different...

HARRIS: Yes.

LUSE: So their voices could not be more different. And it was amazing to hear the way that, like, Beyonce's vocals would step back, like, to bring Miley's forward, or sometimes it was vice versa, or sometimes it felt like they were just perfectly blended, sort of on equal footing. I was really, really amazed by that.

HARRIS: Well, obviously, we had a lot of thoughts, and I think we're all still processing this, but we definitely, I think, enjoy it overall. We enjoy this moment of Beyonce. It's always fun to talk about Beyonce. And you should definitely let us know what you think about "Cowboy Carter." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Sidney Madden, Brittany Luse, and Stephen Thompson, thank you so much for being here. As always, this was great.

MADDEN: Thank you.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

LUSE: Thank you.

HARRIS: And we want to take a moment to thank our POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR Plus subscribers. We absolutely appreciate you for showing your support of NPR. And if you haven't signed up yet, want to show your support and listen to the show without any sponsor breaks, head over to plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katzif and Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

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