The Tulsa SMACKDOWN: Rihanna's greatest hits vs. Black Wall Street vs. Route 66
BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: For the next few weeks, I am bringing The Smackdown - a debate series - to American cities all across the country to find out what are the most influential things and the most important people that come from those places. I'm debating who and what are the greatest of all time.
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LUSE: Today's cage match is being held in Tulsa, Okla. And our debaters this week are the hosts of member station KOSU's Focus: Black Oklahoma - Kuma Roberts and Jacob Littlebear. Kuma, Jacob, which one of you do you think is the better debater?
KUMA ROBERTS, BYLINE: Well, me personally, captain of the Booker T. Washington debate team class of 1993...
LUSE: Ooh.
ROBERTS: ...It's been 30 years, but I think I still got it, my friend.
JACOB LITTLEBEAR, BYLINE: She probably does. I probably...
(LAUGHTER)
LITTLEBEAR: I came up in the age of, like, internet trolling, so I'm not as refined.
LUSE: Hey, there's value in that. There's value in that. But let me tell you how this debate will work. OK, we got two categories. We'll each select a contender - myself included - for each category. We'll make our argument for our contender. And then a select jury of NPR culture critics will decide who made the best argument.
ROBERTS: OK, OK.
LUSE: The first category - what is the single most influential thing from your area? We're talking anything that originated or has roots in Tulsa, Okla. Second category - who is the most important person that comes from your area? You decide and make your case. There will be winners. There will be losers. There will be surprises.
ROBERTS: OK (laughter). Let's go.
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LUSE: No hacking into each other's computers, no intercepting each other's mail, tapping each other's phones, OK?
ROBERTS: He's already living in my old house.
LITTLEBEAR: That's true.
ROBERTS: What else can he do?
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: OK. Well, try your best to have a nice, clean game.
ROBERTS: You got it. You got it.
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LUSE: Kuma and Jacob know the rules. They know the stakes. And I gave them two weeks to scour the archives, call their sources and decide what are the best things to come from Tulsa, Okla.
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LUSE: Two weeks later, it's time to debate.
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LUSE: All right. Without further ado, our first category - what is the most influential thing to come from Tulsa, Okla? Jacob, you're up first.
LITTLEBEAR: My pick for the most influential thing is actually something that goes back to the very roots of Tulsa. It's not far from the center of downtown.
LUSE: OK.
LITTLEBEAR: And it's a beautiful, old, oak tree, surrounded by a patch of grass, neatly boxed in, in a little park. It's called the Council Oak Tree, and it's a hugely important symbol of resilience.
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LITTLEBEAR: Now, the story begins almost 200 years ago in the 1830s. Back then, it was the era of Indian removal, when the U.S. government was forcing Indigenous nations out of their lands, and the Muscogee Nation were kicked out of their ancestral home in the South. Our ancestors were forced to walk what most people know as the Trail of Tears, but in our language, we say Nene Estemerkv, which means the Road to Misery. One group making the deadly trek was the Locv Pokv band of the Muscogee Nation. And with them, they carried the coals and ashes from their ceremonial fire, hoping to rekindle them in their new home.
After walking hundreds of miles, they came upon the Arkansas River. And on a little hill above the river, they stopped under this oak tree. And on that spot under the oak, they relit their ceremonial fire...
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LITTLEBEAR: ...And established their council and their new home. At first, they called it Tallasi, which means old town. And then, over time, it became known as Tulsa. So to me, this tree is probably the most tangible symbol of Tulsa. And it represents our past, and it plays a role in what our future is as well. Without this tree, I don't even think we would have Tulsa, so we wouldn't have any other picks to choose from.
ROBERTS: Wow.
LUSE: (Laughter) Yeah. Wow is right.
ROBERTS: That was compelling.
LUSE: I can't even really argue with that one. You picked a really good one, Jacob.
ROBERTS: I would have to agree. But...
LUSE: But? That's a big but. OK.
ROBERTS: I have to say, I have another choice.
LUSE: All right. OK. Well, Kuma, you are up next. What do you think is the most influential thing to come from Tulsa, Okla?
ROBERTS: OK. I think that while Jacob really nailed it, I got to say that my pick is for Route 66.
LUSE: Oh.
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ROBERTS: Now, you can say that Route 66 belongs to eight different states, but I'm here to say that Route 66 starts in Tulsa. The story of Route 66 begins with Cyrus Avery, and Cyrus loved Tulsa. I mean, he moved in here in 1907, and he was a card-carrying member of the Good Roads Movement. Now, this meant that he believed good roads were critical. For strong commerce and growing cities, you needed better roads. So if Cyrus came across a bad road, he'd fix it. Need a bridge? He'd get one for you. You want a highway? Cyrus was your man.
Because Cyrus was so good at improving roads, he was put in charge of developing the National Highway System. So Cyrus helped formalize a great curved highway between Los Angeles and Chicago, and he believed it was important for the road to pass through a mix of rural and urban areas. And obviously, he made sure that the road was redirected through Tulsa.
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ROBERTS: Route 66 became a symbol of freedom - changed the game when it came to traveling across the country. Plus, it inspired so much culture. I mean, how many other roads have a song that everyone knows? Brittany, Jacob, where do you get your kicks?
LUSE: On Route 66.
ROBERTS: I think Route 66 is the most influential thing from Tulsa because, without it, all small towns across America - would they have thrived without it? Would we have had the great literary works from the likes of Jack Kerouac? Would we have had the movie "Cars" from Pixar? And would we really understand the American dream and what it means to be a young person with a car on an open road with endless possibilities?
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ROBERTS: Probably not.
LUSE: Dang.
LITTLEBEAR: Dang. That was very educational. I didn't know that...
LUSE: It was very educational.
LITTLEBEAR: I didn't know that he had come from Tulsa.
LUSE: Y'all did a really good job. I mean, like I said, I kind of can't argue with your picks. All I can do is present mine. And I think I've got a really good - I think I've got a good, compelling story here, OK? Jacob, Kuma, let me start with a question. Do you guys ever think something is so obvious that it doesn't even seem like it needed to be invented?
LITTLEBEAR: I mean, yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of things I take for granted.
ROBERTS: Sure. Yes. I'm with you on this.
LUSE: OK, OK. We can get so used to something that we forget it took someone, a person, to dream it up. And that is true for what I think is the most influential thing to come from Tulsa, Okla. The dream happened one night in 1936.
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LUSE: The story goes that Sylvan Nathan Goldman - who is from Tulsa - was sitting in his office, wondering how he could get his customers to buy more groceries at his new supermarket - capitalism, y'all. So Sylvan had just brought the brand-new supermarket - a one-stop shopping store - to Oklahoma, and he was trying to revive the Humpty Dumpty grocery chain. And he sat there pondering and staring blankly at a wooden folding chair. Until...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Aha.
LUSE: ...He got up and grabbed a basket and put it on the chair. Now, that was an idea. He called up a mechanic. And soon, the first shopping cart was born.
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LUSE: It had a metal frame with wheels that held two wire baskets.
ROBERTS: Genius.
LUSE: Genius. Sylvan called it a folding basket carrier - the name could use some work, OK? - and rushed it into his supermarket. Except people hated it. People hated it. Sylvan had to hire a team of actors to smile and push the carts around the store...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Hello there.
LUSE: ...Until, finally, people began to use them.
LITTLEBEAR: He had to market the shopping cart. That's crazy.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERTS: Right. Like, what did people do before the shopping cart?
LUSE: I know - just carrying everything in your arms, just feeling, like, just completely raw and out there. I mean, but as you both are suggesting, I mean, today, the shopping cart is a given. You grab it on your way into the store, and you fill it up. You can even argue it's one of the most essential devices for fueling the era of capitalism. Think of it like this. In 2019, the USDA estimates that grocery stores sold $717 billion worth of food.
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LUSE: It's not hard to imagine that nearly all of that food was moved by a shopping cart.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: Have a nice day.
LUSE: And that is why I think the shopping cart is the most influential thing with roots in Tulsa.
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LITTLEBEAR: That's really good.
LUSE: Thank you.
ROBERTS: The shopping cart.
LUSE: (Laughter).
LITTLEBEAR: I'm going to have to start flexing that on people. Like, yeah, well, we made the shopping...
ROBERTS: The shopping cart was right here, bro (laughter).
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LUSE: All right. Well, we've all selected our contenders. Jacob, you chose the Council Oak Tree. Kuma, you went with Route 66. And I chose the shopping cart. The NPR select jury has voted, and they decided - based on our arguments - that the most influential thing to come out of Tulsa, Okla., is the Council Oak Tree.
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LUSE: Jacob, congratulations. Who are you dedicating this win to?
LITTLEBEAR: I'd like to dedicate it to the Muscogee Nation, the Yuchi people, our tribe. But also, there's a lot of other people who are working to preserve the tree, so I commend their efforts a lot.
ROBERTS: Beautiful. Beautiful. Great speech.
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LUSE: One category down, one to go. We're debating who is the most influential person from Tulsa, Okla. And not to toot my own horn, but I think y'all are going to love my pick after a quick break.
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LUSE: All right. It is time for our next category - who is the most important person to come out of Tulsa? Maybe it's your mom, a musician or a comedian. Kuma, who did you choose and why?
ROBERTS: OK. I went really deep on this one.
LUSE: Oh, I love it. I love it.
ROBERTS: My pick is Ottawa W. Gurley or, as he's known here in Tulsa, O. W. Gurley. He was one of the founders of Black Wall Street.
LUSE: Wow.
ROBERTS: He was the literal OG, right? Ottawa Gurley.
LUSE: Oh.
ROBERTS: O - G, ha-ha.
LUSE: (Laughter) I get it. That's good. That's good. That's good.
ROBERTS: OK. So let me take you all back to the turn of the 20th century because Gurley had left the South, and he joined a stampede of people trying to make their fortunes here in Oklahoma.
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ROBERTS: He had a dream, and it was to build a wealthy community that was free of discrimination for Black people because his vision was to create a chocolate city, right? You know, Oklahoma was a perfect place for that dream because the state was making a name for itself as a potential all-Black state. And so at one point, it had more all-Black towns than any other.
LUSE: Oh, wow.
ROBERTS: Oil had been discovered nearby, and it was making locals rich. But instead of heading to the oil fields, he sold the general store he'd been running and bought a huge empty plot of land near north Tulsa's train tracks - roughly 40 acres. Gurley began selling plots of land exclusively to Black settlers looking for upward mobility. This would be the beginning of our beloved Greenwood district.
As more people arrived, Gurley went on to build a grocery store on an avenue, and he subdivided his land into residential and commercial lots. And soon, the neighborhood was booming.
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ROBERTS: And Greenwood had schools, churches, newspapers, a hospital, and it soon rivaled New York and Chicago with luxury hotels and top-notch entertainment, and millionaires strutted around the area that became ultimately known as Black Wall Street.
LUSE: Wow.
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ROBERTS: Greenwood was a vision of Black excellence and prosperity. And all over 600 Black-owned businesses were thriving there. And did you know that the dollar in the Greenwood circulated at least 19 times within the Black community before leaving back in 1921?
LUSE: Wow.
ROBERTS: It was big-balling, Brittany, at its finest. And while we all know what happened with the Tulsa Race Massacre and what would one day destroy the neighborhood, I still think it's important to recognize what this neighborhood was, what Gurley did and that he gave us and me the template for Black entrepreneurship, independence and power. And without him, would we know what the heights of successful Black commerce would look like? Black Wall Street was basically the blueprint for so many others that came after it.
LUSE: Dang. I really didn't have an understanding of just how many Black folks were living in Oklahoma and how many all-Black towns there were in the state.
LITTLEBEAR: It's very interesting. And that's also the other - like, the dark side of the history is, like, that was the first law passed on Oklahoma was, like, segregation. Like...
LUSE: Yeah.
ROBERTS: But we invite you to come to the rodeo, Brittany. We got a lovely Black rodeo in some of these all-Black towns. So...
LUSE: (Laughter) I would love that.
ROBERTS: Black cowboy says, come on. Come on now (laughter).
LUSE: Well, that's a tough one to follow. But Jacob, you're up next. Who do you think is the most important person to come out of Tulsa?
LITTLEBEAR: My pick for most important person is Viola Fletcher, and she's a woman who is currently 110 years old. And let me tell you, she's a woman that has been through hell and back and is still fighting the good fight.
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LITTLEBEAR: Viola lived in Greenwood and said that she had everything she ever needed there. But all of that changed on May 31, 1921.
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VIOLA FLETCHER: Greenwood had given me the chance to truly make it in this country. In a few hours, all of that was gone.
LITTLEBEAR: You might have heard of her because she is the oldest known survivor of the Tulsa Race Massacre. At that time, she was just 7 years old.
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FLETCHER: Our country may forget this history, but I cannot.
LITTLEBEAR: The massacre itself was sparked by reports of a Black teenager named Dick Rowland who had allegedly offended a young white woman in an elevator. But the murky incident got blown out of proportion, and the Tulsa Tribune was running a front-page story claiming that there had been a sexual assault. That night, there was an angry lynch mob gathered outside the courthouse where Rowland was held. And to protect him, a small group of Black men showed up to see what they could do. But the scene escalated, and the angry white mob grew exponentially. It got chaotic, and shots were fired, and so the vastly outnumbered group of Black men had to retreat to Greenwood. And after that, the mob channeled all its fury into the destruction of Greenwood.
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FLETCHER: I still smell smoke and see fire.
LITTLEBEAR: Some of the men were deputized by law enforcement and given guns. Some flew overhead in privately owned airplanes and were shooting up the neighborhood and dropping explosive devices.
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FLETCHER: I still see Black businesses being burned. I still hear airplanes flying overhead.
LITTLEBEAR: By noon on June 1, 35 city blocks were leveled, and thousands of Black residents were displaced.
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FLETCHER: I hear the screams. I have lived through the massacre every day.
LITTLEBEAR: It was the worst incident of racial violence in American history. No one was ever convicted of any crime related to the Tulsa race massacre. As for Viola, her and her family had to leave Tulsa for a time, and she lost her chance at finishing her education and never made it past the fourth grade. She spent most of her life as a domestic worker to rich white Oklahoma families. She ended up having to work until she was 85 years old.
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FLETCHER: I have been blessed with a long life and have seen the best and the worst of this country.
LITTLEBEAR: In 2021, she testified before Congress, demanding that they recognize the horrors she had witnessed.
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FLETCHER: I have never seen justice. I pray that one day I will.
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LITTLEBEAR: So that's why she's my pick - because she's a survivor, and she's a champion. And I think the world would be a better place if we followed her commitment to justice.
ROBERTS: Jeez.
LITTLEBEAR: A hundred and ten years old and still fighting.
ROBERTS: Hundred and ten.
LUSE: It's really mind-blowing.
ROBERTS: Unbelievable.
LUSE: Right.
ROBERTS: The things she's seen.
LUSE: Right. The things she's seen, the things she's survived.
ROBERTS: Right.
LUSE: Again, I can't argue with it. I can't argue with it.
ROBERTS: Wow.
LUSE: You all have both shared really incredible profiles of people that deal in Tulsa's history. I am talking about a present-day queen of Tulsa, OK? I think the most influential person to come from Tulsa is a woman who has been streamed billions of times, whose work has filled multiple Super Bowls, halftime shows, whose melodies defined a decade. Do you know who I'm talking about?
ROBERTS: Reba McEntire.
LUSE: Very close. I mean, not very close, actually. But I love that. I just love - I love Reba. Shout-out Reba. We love you, girl.
ROBERTS: We love you, Reba.
LUSE: But I am talking about the Ester Dean, one of the most popular pop songwriters of the 21st century. But before we get into all of the glitz and the glam and the fame that would come, I want to take you back to the early '90s, when Ester was in grade school in Tulsa, Okla.
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LUSE: Picture a little girl curled up, scribbling away in her notebook. She's writing little lyrical notes while on the road with her mom. At night, she'd watch her mom - professional gospel singer - on stage performing. That little girl scribbling in her notebook wanted to be just like her. Well, wanted to be just like her mom and more. Ester Dean already knew she wanted to be an artist. And lucky her, she had the voice for it. And by the time she was a teenager and all those insecurities we all pick up along the way had settled in, it was Ester's voice that still gave her the confidence to pursue her dreams. She says, when she couldn't find love in the mirror, she found it in the microphone, and that microphone loved her back.
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ESTER DEAN: Like, if I looked in the mirror, I wouldn't feel accepted. But when I got in front of the microphone, it, like, loved me.
LUSE: So it makes sense then that, when she was still a teen, she had the courage to cold-call a recording studio in Muscogee...
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LUSE: ...And sing for the owner over the phone. He was impressed, and soon, Ester and her mom were driving back and forth from Tulsa so Ester could cut her first demos. Those demos didn't go anywhere, but neither did her dreams.
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LUSE: When she was 20, Ester moved to Atlanta to pursue music. She had $500. She lived in Section 8 housing and worked at Target. She auditioned for "American Idol," but still nothing. And then, finally, it happened. In 2005, at a concert by The Gap Band, who also I should mention, are, coincidentally enough, also from Oklahoma, right?
LITTLEBEAR: It's from Tulsa.
ROBERTS: From Tulsa (laughter).
LUSE: Ester was singing along with Charlie Wilson, and a record producer named Tricky Stewart heard her singing through the crowd. She didn't get up on stage. They didn't pass her a microphone. He just heard her singing through the crowd. Now, Tricky was a hitmaker. Tell me if you recognize any of these songs - Rihanna's "Umbrella" or perhaps Beyonce's "Single Ladies" or Mariah Carey's "Touch My Body."
ROBERTS: Ooh.
LUSE: We can call those all smash hits, right?
ROBERTS: That's my jam right there (laughter).
LUSE: OK, that's what I'm saying. Well, that guy heard Ester singing, and he invited her to his studio. She started singing, and Tricky Stewart loved her voice, but he loved her songs even more. And when he found out Ester had written them, he signed her as a writer as fast as he could.
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ESTER DEAN: I have a tendency, when I'm singing, trying to come up with a word. I'm like, (singing) na-na-na, na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na (ph).
LUSE: And by 2008, Ester's demos were being sent out to Rihanna.
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RIHANNA: (Singing) Oh, na-na, what's my name? Oh, na-na, what's my name?
LUSE: And Rihanna would take Ester's songs to the world.
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RIHANNA: (Singing) Hey, boy, I really want to see if you can go downtown with a girl like me. Hey, boy, I really want to be with...
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ESTER DEAN: We kind of know we writing for Rihanna. It's not even like, oh, I wonder who we writing for today. Rihanna.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #5: It's Rihanna.
ESTER DEAN: Yeah. So, yeah, that was already hers before she heard it.
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RIHANNA: (Singing) Na-na-na, come on.
LUSE: And it's wild to hear those original demos.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "S AND M")
ESTER DEAN: (Singing) Sticks and stones may break my bones...
LUSE: Because you could hear how it was Ester's inflection and intonation that Rihanna was mimicking.
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RIHANNA: (Singing) Sticks and stones may break my bones, but chains and whips excite me.
LUSE: The 2010s belonged to Ester. And it wasn't just Rihanna. Ester wrote Nikki Minaj's smash hit, "Super Bass." OK. We all know. Katie Perry's "Firework."
LITTLEBEAR: We're looking at the Wikipedia.
ROBERTS: We're looking at all the songs.
LITTLEBEAR: This is crazy.
ROBERTS: Oh, my God.
LUSE: Y'all are looking (laughter). Look at y'all. I got y'all helping me make my point. It was Ester's voice and sound, that, quote-unquote, "urban pop," that defined pop music in the 2010s. Everyone, and I mean everyone, wanted to sound like her. That little girl scribbling away in her notebook in Tulsa - she would chase her dream of becoming an artist and, in the end, change pop music and pop culture forever. And that is why I think Ester Dean is the most influential person to come from Tulsa, Okla.
LITTLEBEAR: That's a good one.
ROBERTS: That was good, man. You blew my mind with that. I had no clue.
LITTLEBEAR: I've never heard of her.
ROBERTS: Wow. That one really is so good. I'm going to be talking about her forever.
LUSE: (Laughter) The queen of Tulsa (laughter).
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LUSE: All right. We've all selected our contenders. Jacob, you chose Viola Fletcher. Kuma, you went with Ottawa Gurley. And I chose Ester Dean. The NPR select jury has voted, and they decided - based on our arguments - that the most influential person to come out of Tulsa, Okla., is Ester Dean.
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LUSE: Congratulations to me.
ROBERTS: That was good.
LUSE: I am dedicating this to all the karaoke lovers out here. I know that me and all of you have been singing our hearts out to Ester's songs, whether we knew it or not.
ROBERTS: I'm going to have more pride when I sing those songs, knowing she's from here.
LUSE: Yes.
ROBERTS: (Laughter).
(CHEERING)
LUSE: All right. And thus concludes The Smackdown for this week. Do you think the NPR jury got it right? Let us know what you think should have won by commenting on this episode in the Spotify app or by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. And Kuma, Jacob, thank you both so much for teaching us about all the amazing things that have come from your neck of the woods.
ROBERTS: Thank you. We're so honored. This was fun.
LITTLEBEAR: Super fun.
LUSE: That was Kuma Roberts and Jacob Littlebear. They are the hosts of Focus: Black Oklahoma from member station KOSU. Next Tuesday, I'm hosting a homecoming party because we are headed to my home state and debating in Detroit city. It's our final Smackdown, and you just know I got to bring it to rep my people. Tune in right here next week for the Detroit Smackdown.
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LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
BARTON GIRDWOOD, BYLINE: Barton Girdwood.
ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
JASMINE ROMERO, BYLINE: Jasmine Romero.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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