SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
Former President Donald Trump wants to distance himself from Project 2025. That's the controversial playbook for a new conservative government drawn up by the Heritage Foundation.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Trump wrote on his social media website that he knows nothing about the project and that he thinks they're proposing ridiculous things. Meanwhile, the Biden campaign is doing everything it can to tie Trump and Project 2025 together.
PFEIFFER: NPR's Franco Ordoñez has been covering the Trump campaign. He joins us now in the studio. Hi, Franco.
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Hey, Sacha.
PFEIFFER: What should we know about Project 2025?
ORDOÑEZ: I mean, the heart of it is a 900-page pro-Trump guidebook that outlines how to expand his presidential powers. It details plans to gut the civil service or, as Trump says, demolish the deep state and reshape the American government with more loyal federal workers. It's also a way for Trump to kind of not repeat some of the mistakes made during the early days of his first administration, when he didn't have the plans, the personnel or infrastructure ready to stand up a new government after his inauguration.
I spoke with Ryan Williams, who worked for Mitt Romney on his 2012 presidential campaign. He put it this way.
RYAN WILLIAMS: We had professional leaders who had served in cabinet positions involved in our transition. That didn't happen with Trump, and his transition was plagued by infighting.
ORDOÑEZ: But, you know, he is distancing himself - Trump, that is - especially after the head of Heritage made comments that raised some eyebrows about a second American Revolution and warning it could remain bloodless - this is a quote - "remain bloodless if the left allows it."
PFEIFFER: Yet, as we said earlier, Trump said he knows nothing - that's his word - nothing about Project 2025. But there is some overlap with this and his agenda.
ORDOÑEZ: Yes, there is. I mean, this is not Trump's plan, but it is a plan for Trump. In many ways, what it does is take some of Trump's biggest policy goals and kind of outlines a legal pathway to execute them, such as on overhauling the federal workforce. It also offers guidance on Trump's proposed mass deportations of millions of undocumented immigrants.
And there are some differences, of course. On abortion, for example, Project 2025 goes much further on restrictions than Trump has said he would go. But another important point, Sacha, is that - the people involved. And many of those are allies, loyalists, and they worked in the past administration.
PFEIFFER: Project 2025 could present an opportunity for the Biden campaign, especially at a time where the campaign is in its own turmoil. What's the campaign dealing - how is it approaching it?
ORDOÑEZ: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of been one of the few slivers of good political news for Biden in what's been really a tough two weeks after his bad debate. I mean, the campaign also got some help from actress Taraji P. Henson, who warned about Project 2025 onstage when she hosted the BET Awards. You know, the campaign is blasting messages about it. It launched ads and even created a website tying Trump to Project 2025.
PFEIFFER: What is the Trump campaign saying about that?
ORDOÑEZ: Well, they're pushing back, and they're pushing back hard. I mean, I spoke with senior adviser Danielle Alvarez, who said the campaign has been saying for months that these outside groups do not speak for them. She accused Biden of trying to distract from questions about his mental acuity and whether he'll even stay in the race.
DANIELLE ALVAREZ: And so Democrats are desperate. And they're throwing a Hail Mary, attempting to talk about outside groups as though they're President Trump's policy positions.
ORDOÑEZ: She stressed that the campaign has its own policy proposals, Agenda 47 and the Republican platform, which is all true. But it is also true that those involved in Project 2025 are very much intertwined with Trump world, and some of them are likely to be back helping Trump again should he return to office.
PFEIFFER: That's NPR's Franco Ordoñez. Thank you.
ORDOÑEZ: Thank you.
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